Scott: 00:03

Hello everybody and welcome back in to another episode of the 2 Parachutes Podcast. I am Scott Olson. I am one of your co hosts. I'm a retired FBI agent, and I bring to all of what we do the grandfather perspective. With me is my co host, Sean.

Shawn: 00:22

Hey. Thanks, Scott. And I am Sean Baker Garcia, the other half of this host equation. And I'm gonna introduce myself today as the average, you know, concerned citizen for the state of humanity and World Cup soccer enthusiast. So we'll go with the thematic descriptor today.

Scott: 00:44

Yeah, that that's great. Just for the record, nothing average about you, my dear. But I understand where you're coming from. Wonderful. The way the way a person looks at themselves from the inside out is never the way the rest of the world looks from the outside in.

Shawn: 01:01

Fair point.

Scott: 01:01

We can agree to disagree, but yeah, World Cup. And it may be a little bit of a departure from some of the things that we talk about on the 2 Parachutes Podcast, but in some ways it's actually not because what's happening out in the world is what the public dialogue is all about, and it's not necessarily politics or, you know, protests in the street and, you know the the good or bad things that are happening around the world and what's what's happening around the world right now in addition to the Straits Of Hormuz is World Cup soccer and am not certainly as much of a soccer fan as you are but it certainly hit my radar this red card situation and then the president of The United States weighing in with his close personal friend who's in charge of FIFA to get that one game suspension waived and then the what appears to be the complete collapse of a rising United States soccer team, which is fascinating because it's performance issue and performance issues are driven by how you think and what you feel. And so over to you as the soccer fan here. I see that you're wearing a shirt that is probably older than most college students at this point.

Scott: 02:36

Yes. Sean Baker Garcia soccer fan

Shawn: 02:40

approach

Scott: 02:41

to what's been happening in the last day or so.

Shawn: 02:44

Boy, I'll tell you, collapse is right. And, you know, as a soccer enthusiast, and you're right, I'm wearing, I'm Egyptian because today, of course, Argentina and Egypt are as we record and live and breathe in the middle of their, you know, knockout round match. And when this recording went to press here as of, you know, one 01:00 aft this afternoon PM Eastern Coast time, they were Egypt was up at their half. So by one, Messi historically missed a second PK in this tournament to date, which is just unheard of for him and and for all such penalty kicks stats, you know, for the World Cup as a tournament. So, yeah, it it's you know, I was a study abroad student at the University of Cairo from 2003 to 2004, way back when.

Shawn: 03:43

And this I'm wearing today.

Scott: 03:44

You mean you're you're not average?

Shawn: 03:46

No. I'm I'm right. There you go. You I just yeah. I just handed prosecution their first exhibit for evidence, you know.

Shawn: 03:57

And so I picked up this Al Ahli Club jersey, which is, of course, that was one of the club teams associated with Cairo back in 02/1934. So I dug it out of the sort of vault of my, you know, the darkest recesses of my dresser today. And I was like, well, today, I'm Egyptian, and here we go. You know, by the way, my Egyptian friends bonkers. They were just like, what?

Shawn: 04:19

Like, you know, that a, I don't think they still think thought I had one of these. This is actually probably gonna be worth something at some point. Like, I don't know. You know? This is a you never know.

Shawn: 04:29

But, yeah, I I love the the idea of talking about this. And, you know, what I can say is it felt very much like the US men's team did not do the hard work of interacting on the pitch against, you know, Belgium. Now, you know, I don't wanna take anything away from the Belgian win. You know, I'm sure they're a very technically, you know, competent team. I I think they were ranked, like, ninth, so they were well above us at any rate in the overall statistics.

Shawn: 04:59

So on some level, I guess it shouldn't really be any kind of surprise that we lost. But I do think what stood out for me as a fan, and I will full transparency, I did not watch the game to its conclusion, although I stayed awake. I just couldn't bear to watch the meltdown, you know, as it were. I stayed awake until a little bit after the first half, and then I was like, okay. I'm I'm done.

Shawn: 05:22

Like, we we get I'm gonna wrap this up. My husband watched. He he he's he's a diehard, and he's the kind who, you know he he's a good army colonel. He stays with his troops till the bloody end. I'm like I'm like, look.

Shawn: 05:35

I was hired for a very special consulting gig with this unit. I don't wanna be around for the aftermath of the the death. Like, you know. Yeah. So, you know, he stayed to the bloody finish.

Shawn: 05:46

You know, he went down with the ship so to speak. But you know, I could have told you Scott within the first almost within the first sixty seconds, you know, there was something the energy was off. The vibe was off. The team, they didn't particularly come out looking out of the tunnel looking particularly excited. They were, you know, they seemed disoriented and sort of discombobulated in the first ten, fifteen minutes.

Shawn: 06:15

You know, obviously, there was an immediate sort of scare, you know, that Belgium kind of had scored very, very quickly on them. I think that actually got called back. But, you know, there was a tone, I'll just say, that was kind of immediately felt and sensed. And it, you know, up until I walked out of the room, characterized the entire, you know, kind of first half. And and and it looks like it just kind of got worse from there.

Shawn: 06:44

So, you know, so you mentioned the politics surrounding Trump getting involved with the red card issue. You know, it's it's it's so fascinating to me because, first of all, I just people just need to calm down. Let you like, they you know, I'm sure he made the well, he said he made the call. Nobody's denying the call with me. I don't know that FIFA issued the president of FIFA and and, you know, or the or the the broader entity itself.

Shawn: 07:15

Like, issued a couple of statements on this talking about the impartial not impartiality, the the checks and balances within their autonomous sort of review systems that they have in place. So was it inappropriate and childish for the president to to have done that? Yeah. Definitely. I mean, you're the sitting president of a head of state who's, you know, one of the biggest tournaments of their life.

Shawn: 07:38

You know? Your your your boys are out there fighting, and and, you know, that's kind of the equivalent of your mother when you're 17 years old going to the principal and waving her finger. Like, I would be mortified. Do you know what I mean? And and so you know?

Shawn: 07:55

But as we know, I'll venture to say based on conversations Scott, you and I have had talking about the amygdala and response. It very much seems that our president lives in his amygdala response. He doesn't really always kind of give it time to simmer and think it through. Like, is this a good idea or not? What are the broader implications besides just satisfying your own immediate need to see justice or to right a wrong, certainly we can all understand and empathize with that instinct.

Shawn: 08:24

You know, my husband, who's an avid soccer fan, even beyond me because he played for many, many years in addition to refing. And, you know, he understands the rules of the game intimately. You know? And so it it was unfortunate because he's like, it was it was absolutely the wrong call, but the way that it got resolved was also the wrong call. You know what I mean?

Shawn: 08:48

Like that that so two wrongs don't make a right. I think we learned that in kindergarten. You know? And so yeah. So maybe that cast a a pall, as it were, over the team.

Shawn: 09:01

Maybe they were frustrated by being caught up in this, and and I don't blame them. And and, you know, Scott, we've had conversations prior to this episode where I get frustrated sometimes about public displays of about politics invading sports. Because to me, it's so destructive. It's so destructive to have politics infringing on one of the few remaining areas of our lives that we can genuinely come together as, like, you know, just brothers and sisters and co humans to to enjoy something and to regale in something together, regardless of borders, regardless of socioeconomic status, you know, regardless of language or religious affiliation. So anyway, so that's my soapbox intro to all of this.

Shawn: 09:47

It was a tough performance insofar as it wasn't World Cup performance. But it also wasn't characteristic of what their team vibe had been going into this match. So, you know, you do have to look at some of the outlier incidents surrounding this whole red card situation. And and now we'll always have to ask the question, did that did that play a a role? Now it may not matter because in the end, I think Belgium was probably the better team anyway.

Shawn: 10:19

You know what I mean? Mhmm. I don't know that this was gonna be The United States year. Right? Like, after watching the Argentina Capo Verde or Cape Verde, like, match, to me, that felt like the World Cup finale because you just had these herculean giants of the sport going after each other in a way that was elegant and masterful and complex and op like, just off the chart aptitude and and competence.

Shawn: 10:49

I don't think The US we haven't been playing at that level, so I don't think we would have taken it all the way anyhow. But but, you know, yeah. So there it is. I I don't I don't know the answer, Scott. What do what do you think?

Scott: 11:03

You're you're making me think of so many things, and I want to make sure that I get a couple of these things right. But it's, you know, when we're thinking about the things that we talk about on the 2 Parachutes Podcast, we're interested in the things in the world that are useful to notice. And a lot of times when we're in our reptile brain and we're reacting reacting reacting, we we think we're noticing but we're really not noticing what's happening in the world broadly. We're noticing the thing that is the immediate threat that's close to us. And part of getting off of that roller coaster is to take a minute to pull back from those, you know, immediate things that look like crises because they're hammering into our reactive brain and to move ourselves over to the reflective brain and to find that moment where we can think about stuff.

Scott: 12:18

And one of the things that we've talked a lot about is what happens when you disagree with somebody, what happens when you argue, what happens when you debate, what happens when you try and resolve a difference or a dispute, and one of the things that we've noticed is in today's world the ethical thing to do is to crush your opponent. Compromise is seen as morally bankrupt, Fighting is seen as morally the best thing that you can do. And what a lot of people, it seems to me, think is good is to not stop fighting until you have 100% of what you want and our observation is and has been and will continue to be that when you do that to an opponent, that opponent stays your opponent and will come back and will beat you. There's that that kind of if I'm treated unfairly that stays with me and inspires me to do better. And there are tons of examples of that out in the world, but you know the Belgians and the Americans both had that opportunity.

Scott: 13:42

And what's really interesting is the president, President Trump, thought he was doing the right thing but what he actually did was he robbed the US team of the incentive that comes from being treated outrageously and using that to drive performance level. And that's what every parent in the world who has thought they're going to bat for their kid. My kid was, you know, treated unfairly at school, so I'm gonna go yell at the principal. You see instances recorded in the news, and I've seen these instances for at least the last ten years and maybe even longer, where you have college graduates that are going into job interviews and they bring their parents with them. The parent is robbing the child of you just got knocked down.

Scott: 14:42

What are you going to do? Are you going to come back more aggressive? Are you going to respond with strength and dignity because you've been treated unfairly. And so what happened, I think, with this game between the United States and Belgium is the United States was going into that game having been treated unfairly. I don't understand the rules of yellow cards and red cards.

Scott: 15:11

I'm more of a rugby fan than I am a soccer fan and sometimes a lot of times I don't understand why a yellow card or a red card is given in rugby, and certainly less in soccer, but the point of this is, if it was a controversial red card and if The United States, even if they're wrong in this, even if it was a legitimate red card and this guy should have been suspended for a game, even if that is what the rules require, the United States team could have taken that as we were treated unfairly and we are rising to this and we are coming for you Belgium and we are going to beat you anyway. And that was happening until President Trump intervened and got the suspension lifted and then it shifted. And when you looked at the Belgians, they now had this attitude of we're being treated unfairly. We're now on the short end of this rules violation. You guys came in and stirred the pot and the fix was in because your president is you know great friends with the director of FIFA and this is unfair and were common for you.

Scott: 16:40

It becomes less about the known skill of the players and the known skill of the two teams and more about the drive that you bring to this game, the drive of what's possible. And I think we as a people need to understand that outrage is strong and it's important to understand what outrage is because outrage can lead to a self inflicted wound. If everything you see in the world is something that outrages you, you're gonna get exhausted because it's hard feeling outrage. That is an amygdala thing. It saves you in some instances, but you know false crisis to false crisis to false crisis, it's exhausting.

Scott: 17:33

But in an isolated incident, it can inspire a person, or in this case a team, to higher performance. And by higher performance, I think what was the score? Is four to one in the game between the US and Belgium? I'm asking just because I don't remember. Do you remember what the score was?

Shawn: 17:58

It was one to so US one, Belgium four.

Scott: 18:01

Yeah. So the Belgians spanked the United States. They may not have won by that much if they hadn't come in with that sense of being treated unfairly. And the thing is, as the parent or as the president, it's hard, right?

Shawn: 18:18

Yeah. You

Scott: 18:20

see somebody that you feel responsible for being treated unfairly and it feels bad to you as the parent to stand by and do nothing. But but here's the thing and you know being a parent being the president of The United States being an elected official anywhere it's not for the faint of heart it's not and it's it's not really about you

Shawn: 18:44

yeah

Scott: 18:44

and and all this is the grandfather perspective this is this is all about what you need to do as a parent or a grandparent or another person in authority when somebody that you care about that you are in a position to care for, is faced with this. And the reality of it is, the truth is, that if you come in and you solve every problem that your child or grandchild has, You rob them of humanity and you're not doing it to help them. You're doing it to help yourself. You're doing it because you feel bad that they're hurt. And it takes being an adult, it takes being mature to stand by, talk it through with them, help them figure out what they're gonna do but don't fix it so you feel better.

Shawn: 19:44

Yeah.

Scott: 19:44

And you know, I love having this debate with people who don't understand. I remember being at a dinner years ago. My oldest daughter was a junior in college. She was finishing her sophomore year and she was going to do her junior year studying abroad, and I was with my first wife at the time, who's my partner in having the children. She's the mother of the children that we have.

Scott: 20:16

And there were four couples, and the other three couples were absolutely incredulous that we were in their language letting our daughter study abroad. How could we do that? I'm looking at these people

Shawn: 20:36

going, how

Scott: 20:37

could we not do that? And they went off talking about themselves. How scared they would be that their child would be overseas. How scared they would be that something would happen. And I'm looking at these people going, You're robbing your child of growth.

Scott: 20:58

You're robbing your child of the experience. And they did not understand. I'm looking at them thinking they're crazy and it took me time. It took me a couple of weeks to understand that they were looking at me like I was crazy. But the truth is when you solve somebody else's problems for them, it's not that you're just going to have to keep solving their problems because they don't learn, you're robbing them of humanity.

Scott: 21:25

And I think that's what happened. I think that's what the president did. His intentions might have been good, but his actions were wrong. What he should have done, Mr. President, what you should have done is gone to the stadium and said, Boys, go kick their ass.

Shawn: 21:41

That's right. You're

Scott: 21:42

treated unfairly, you got a red card that you shouldn't have, that sucks. What are you gonna do about this? What I want

Shawn: 21:48

David and Goliath, you know?

Scott: 21:50

Yeah. What I want to do as the President of The United States is go up and sit in my great seat and watch you guys hand it to the Belgians. Right. That's what he should have done.

Shawn: 22:01

That's right.

Scott: 22:02

And at sporting events you see parents and grandparents doing that. Yeah you got knocked down. Yeah you got fouled. What are you gonna do about it?

Shawn: 22:11

Right.

Scott: 22:11

And almost exclusively, I mean, sometimes you got a kid who hasn't learned yet and sometimes you got a kid who has a personality if they get locked down and they limp off. But almost 100% of the time, what you get is a kid who goes, No, this is unfair, not happening. And they learn. So don't know if that gets you where you wanna go, but you certainly got me.

Shawn: 22:40

No, I love it actually. So and and I it draws out a bunch of stuff for me. So the first thing I'll say is, you know, the first thing that I learned as a brand new field manager of flag football with youth flag football league this this spring was that the refs have final say. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it was a blatantly wrong call from your vantage point.

Shawn: 23:05

Like, maybe you had a viewpoint that the ref didn't see or that, you know, you know, or or that it was just a bad call. It just may have been a bad call. The assumption though, is that reps are making those calls in good faith, right? That from their vantage point, what they saw, they made the best call that they could with that information at that moment. Now, the reason why that's so important is because, and it doesn't take a great imagination or or rocket scientist to to kind of envision this this other alternative world where every call gets questioned.

Shawn: 23:46

You know what I mean? Now we're locked in arbitration for three tenths or, you know, for, you know, 20% of the game or longer because everybody feels like, you know, once you open the door to that subjective, you know, opinion process, then all of a sudden, you know, the game ceases to exist and it becomes more about litigating, you know, positions, right, or perspectives. And so I think that's the first thing that we just need to understand because I think there's a metaphor in there for how we govern ourselves and how we interact in a social compact with each other. The same is true on the pitch. There is a social compact.

Shawn: 24:23

There is a there is a that is made an agreement between all involved, between the refs, the coaches, the players, the spectators, that we are all agreeing that for the common good of enjoying the sport and this competitive process that reps have the final say. So when they introduce the VAR process, right, which is video review, You know, I think that there are that introduced to some ex well, maybe to a large extent. Well, that just that that kind of went against the principles that the ref has final say. We'll just say it. You know what I mean?

Shawn: 25:02

Because now you're scrutinizing these these player incidents. And and the problem with VAR that and this particularly, my husband gets worked up about is like, you can look at something on you can do a VAR review and what appears into you visually, and maybe as a lawyer, this might speak to you as well. What what happens on a recording that's especially if it's in slow motion, can often communicate an inaccurate reality of what was happening in what was otherwise a bleeding fraction of a second moment. So now when you see the guy's foot coming down on the other guy's ankle, when it's in slow motion, it a 100% looks deliberate.

Scott: 25:51

Mhmm.

Shawn: 25:52

But when you are in the middle of the freaking fight and, like, nobody knows what it's like to be in the middle of a soccer scramble. You know what I mean? When you're when you have, like, all these feet, you know, multiple players all going after this ball. And, you know, it's not to say that players aren't skilled enough to do get in a a nice little jab. Right?

Shawn: 26:13

I used to do it all the time as a kid. Like, you know, we'd step on heels deliberately or, you know, cleats up, you know, studs up on the shins, you know, to take them down or or the back, you know, the calves. Right? Like, you know, we we were and that was like, I was 10, and we were doing that. You know what I mean?

Shawn: 26:29

So, like, yeah, these guys have perfected the art of of, in some sense, like, doing harm to the other player and and essentially getting out of it. Right? Not not let you know, and then saying, oh, we'll fog a war. But but in this particular case, my husband was like, no. He there was no intent there.

Shawn: 26:44

Like, you know, there could have been. But when you looked at it in slow motion, boy, that just it, you know, tells a whole different story, but it tells an inaccurate one. So so so that's one part of this. Yep. Going back to the part where you were talking about, like, you know, kind of the president and how he could have handled that differently and better, you know, I'll even offer another option for how he could have handled it.

Shawn: 27:07

He could have, in the spirit of just not understanding the rules of soccer or FIFA, could have just called up and said, hey. I'm not like you know, the call is what the call is. But can you walk me through your process if something is, like, egregiously, blatantly comes to, like, be revealed that this was the wrong call? What's the process? Is there a process?

Shawn: 27:29

It's like you know? I mean, just be curious. We've said that a million times. You can have a phone call. You can ask people questions.

Shawn: 27:37

But where the line gets crossed is when you use your authority or status or influence or power to even and I'm sorry, but you do have a greater responsibility being the head of this nation as would any head of nation, you know, have that a greater responsibility to the optic. You know what I mean? Of your behavior or action. And so, you know, again, let's just assume the best that the heart was in the right place, but the expression of that feeling was inaccurately placed. And I do agree with you wholeheartedly that it robbed that team.

Shawn: 28:21

They may not have still won, but I guarantee you they would have been a better team on the pitch, and here's why. Because they would have known going into it. They were down one of their best, if not most prolific strikers. That would have forced them to do a different to adopt a different strategy going into that that game, you know, and or that match. And I think that yeah.

Shawn: 28:50

Like, there and I also think, by the way, this is a metaphor, Scott. You know? And this is to all you DEI lovers out there. I get that your heart is in the right place with this, but I don't think you always appreciate that that iron, like, is forged in in in fire and that, like, you know, challenge and struggle is beautiful at times, many times. It's never pleasant.

Shawn: 29:18

It's rarely pleasant. But I challenge you to give me an instance of when achieving anything worth achieving is pleasant. No. That's not the goal. That's not the point.

Shawn: 29:29

And some of the greatest champions on earth have come from nothing. Well, why do you think that is? It's not the rich kids sitting around in Bel Air who who are your, you know, ath you know, your your otherwise, we'd have nothing but billionaire kids as Olympians and as achievers. Right? So just issuing wisdom, hopefully, to both everybody on the spectrum here.

Shawn: 29:55

It's like diversity is not a four letter word, you know, or not diversity. Sorry. Adversity is what I'm trying to say. Adversity is not a four letter word. Don't use your power to influence things unduly because it you know, you you're just going to cause more hurt than you are good.

Shawn: 30:16

And have some faith in your people, by the way. Like, you know, and reps are not always right, but they should always be final. Yeah. And it's, you know,

Scott: 30:28

yeah, I agree with ref thing that, you know, refs are It's a hard job

Shawn: 30:38

being and

Scott: 30:39

the call should be final, but it's the finality that matters, not the correctness. And it feeds into the point you're making, and I'm going to grab that point and I am going to take it a further step. Because a lot of what we talk about at the 2 Parachutes Podcast is fundamental humanity. And maybe people don't think of that in the context of a soccer game, a kid's sporting event, but that's what it is. When somebody is treated unfairly, when the call goes against you, if you as an authority figure, as a parent or as a politician, get involved and intervene, you're robbing the athlete of the chance to rise to the occasion.

Scott: 31:30

And what President Trump did by intervening, even though he thought it was the right thing to do, he robbed three players of the chance to rise to the occasion. The suspended player, whose name I don't even know what's what's

Shawn: 31:45

his name? Balligan. Balligan? Mhmm that's his last name yeah.

Scott: 31:48

The opportunity that he was robbed of is you're suspended unfairly what do you do? Do you go home? Do you sit in the locker room? Or do you hunker down with the players that are gonna replace you and make sure that they succeed? There were two players as I understand it who were on the bench that were the the players that are going to fill in for him.

Scott: 32:21

Both of those athletes were robbed of the opportunity to rise to the occasion.

Shawn: 32:28

Sure.

Scott: 32:29

This was their chance to show what they got and that was stolen from them because this call was reversed. So you're you're right that doing the right thing by arguing the call feels good, but it only feels good to the people on the sideline. When you are in a game, and it's a game, but it is illustrative of life, if you're in a game and the call goes against you, this is now your opportunity to rise and I think that your critique of people who love DEI is the same. If a person gets treated unfairly and you tell that person it's not their fault, it's their religion, the way they look, their gender, their skin color, all things that they can do nothing about, you rob them of the chance to rise to the occasion. Yeah.

Scott: 33:38

And I will even go this far. Occasionally people have the occasionally people ask me to talk about my white privilege. For those of you that are listening and

Shawn: 33:54

not

Scott: 33:54

watching us, I'm a grandfather. I am a mid-60s white male. And there are people who have made the poor decision to ask me about my white privilege. And what we're talking about is my white privilege and the tremendous advantage I have when I'm treated unfairly, when I get knocked down, when I get filed, when I don't get promoted, when I physically get knocked down, I don't get the job, I don't get a great performance review. When I'm treated unfairly as a white male, nobody feels sorry for me.

Scott: 34:37

So I always 100% of the time am given the opportunity to rise to the occasion. People who have a different skin color than me and a different gender than me, when they're treated unfairly, they are robbed of that because they are told by well meaning people it's not your fault. And when you hear it's not your fault, what you're also being told is there's nothing you can do about it. And so I am stronger because I'm always permitted to rise to the occasion. They have a much more difficult time building that strength because they are robbed of the chance of rising to the occasion and it is so unfair and what it is the fundamental problem with well meaning people who rob other human beings of the opportunity to rise to the occasion, is it robs people of dignity.

Scott: 35:40

And it's fundamentally, in my view, it's inhumane. You're taking a person who is trying to function as a person in adversity and you're making them less than they know that they are. You're making it easy for them to quit. And there's a wonderful illustration. Another thing that we do here on the podcast is what we want is for people to notice things.

Scott: 36:07

And one of the great things about the world is these messages and these examples, they come from anywhere. And what I'm thinking of is the great movie Remember the Titans. I don't know if you've seen this movie.

Shawn: 36:22

Oh phenomenal, phenomenal.

Scott: 36:24

It's Denzel Washington and Will Patton and a great cast and it's There's the the story is of a football team in Virginia that allowed black players African American players on its team in you know the racial 60s where anytime they went anywhere they were they were denigrated and assaulted because they were bringing players that weren't white basically, and they they had an undefeated season. They brought in a a black coach, made the white coach a, you know, the defensive coordinator, and they had an undefeated season. And there's a scene where the the Titans, that football team, is beginning to beat one of the championship all white teams, and so the refs who are white start calling fouls that aren't fouls and Will Patton's character. He's the former coach who's now the defensive line coach goes out and goes to the ref who he knows and he goes you you call this game fair and the the the ref goes I'm calling what I see coach it's such a great it's it's given me goosebumps

Shawn: 37:51

yeah

Scott: 37:51

Will Patton puts his hand on the ref's shoulders and goes okay okay. And then he goes back to his guys and he goes, they're not calling the game fair. You blitz every play. You go after these guys and you beat them. And one of the players complains and says it's not fair, screwed, it's not fair.

Scott: 38:16

And he walks off. And Will Patton's character goes forget about him, this is what we're doing. And the rest of these guys rise to the occasion and even though the game is called unfairly, they still win. That's what makes the movie great. It's a great storyline and the reason it's a great storyline is because it's real.

Scott: 38:39

The reason it resonates with people is because nobody likes getting knocked down, but everybody wants to be human. That's Everybody wants the opportunity to rise. And that's what this red card Belgian game is all about. And that's really the fundamental problem with what the president did.

Shawn: 39:05

Yeah. Well, it's rise and it's also overcome, right? Like that's, you know.

Scott: 39:10

Yeah. That's Yeah. Yeah. That is That's Yeah.

Shawn: 39:18

And fun fact about the movie Remember the Titans? Scott, you may or may not know this. That was actually just up the street from us. Alexandria. It's TC William they used to be called TC Williams High School.

Shawn: 39:31

It's now the city of Alexandria High or Alexandria City High School.

Scott: 39:36

That's right.

Shawn: 39:36

TC So it's right up the street. You know? So this this actually talk about real and close to home. It really strikes a chord in me as well. And and I and, know, I never get sick of that movie.

Shawn: 39:47

Greg and I watch it still from time to time. That and The Bad News Bears. Two of my favorite of all, like, we'll have to do a whole thing on the Bad News Bears, you know, because like, I talk about a story of just like doing the hard work of interacting and grit, you know, and overcoming, you know, those are very Yeah, those great story narratives. You know, not only mean, News Bears is probably not based on a real story, but you know, in the case of Remember the Titans, was 100. And I think that's a beautiful description of what we saw and kind of where there was that missed opportunity, is what I'll say to that.

Scott: 40:25

And the thing is, have a number of concepts that we keep coming back to. And the reason we keep coming back to them is because they're important and they're fundamental, and one of them is the hard work of interacting. And the question is, why is it hard? And what we're talking about is hard. The president not intervening is hard.

Scott: 40:56

Intervening is easy.

Shawn: 40:57

Yeah.

Scott: 40:58

Not intervening is hard. Stepping back and you know you're the parent or the grandparent on the sidelines and there's a bad call and everybody agrees it's a bad call but it's the call that the referee made stepping back and going to, you know, a 10 year old kid or a 12 year old kid that, you know, wants to be on the travel team and can only do that if he or if she is successful and this bad call is going to interfere with that, and just watching and waiting and seeing what does this kid do? Is the child's choice? That is hard. The reason most people don't do it is because it's hard.

Scott: 41:47

But it's also really important and part of working through that, part of doing this hard thing, is understanding that it's not about you. That it's about them. You know how to deal with this. You know what you would do. Letting them grow is hard because it's actually not about you, and it doesn't mean do nothing.

Scott: 42:16

Yeah. It means interact with the child,

Shawn: 42:20

not with

Scott: 42:20

the ref. Mr. President, come down and talk to the team. Yeah.

Shawn: 42:24

Give your boys a pep talk, you know.

Scott: 42:26

It's and that is much harder. Yeah. You know, it's much harder when you're leaning over somebody that's in the dust and they've been knocked down and you go, you okay? You know, can I can I help you get up? And they're looking at up at you with tears in their eyes and you're like, well, come on, Gramps.

Scott: 42:47

Why don't you go kick that guy's butt for me? Yeah. And saying, well, I I could, but this is your fight. So how do I help you figure out what you wanna do? And just

Shawn: 43:01

quickly, Scott. Can I just interject one because I don't wanna lose this thought? You just Yeah. And we've been dancing around this a little bit, and I think it's implied. But I also just wanna take a moment to call to attention the fact that not only did it all of the things that were said prior stand true.

Shawn: 43:17

In addition to all of that, it it compounded this team's would imagine this team's sense of not shame because they shouldn't feel ashamed, but, like, maybe just a little bit of embarrassment of of you know? Because it's like dad went and complained to the principal, and we still lost.

Scott: 43:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn: 43:41

Now that loss is no longer honorable, and it's even worse because now you feel like you let your whole country down. You know what I mean? You let each other down. It's very that's a very unfair position to put them in.

Scott: 43:54

Yeah. It's it it is it is compounded. It's like and and this is this is a bit of a sideline, but it it really is relevant. Know, you spend three times what your opponent spent and you still lose the election. Yeah.

Scott: 44:10

You come from the high school that has you know the huge gym and the great facility and TC Williams that has canvas bags beats you. That's embarrassing. You've got all this top cover because the president of The United States comes in and helps you and and you you still lose I mean you're they're they're they're still down

Shawn: 44:36

oh so the example that comes to my mind when you just said that is the rocky balboa movies with drago

Scott: 44:42

Yeah.

Shawn: 44:42

Right?

Scott: 44:43

With Ivan Drago. Yeah.

Shawn: 44:44

Yeah. They they freaking just like, he had all those state of the art, like, you know, machines and, you know, training facilities and, like, just super cutting edge high-tech, and they were just like and this dude was like a perfect, almost, like, supernatural specimen. Right? And then Yeah. And then here's little Rocky Balboa, like, running up the Philadelphia, like, courthouse steps.

Shawn: 45:07

Right? Like and just, you know, pulling sleds on the beach and, you know, whatever other thing he was doing.

Scott: 45:15

Yeah. And in Rocky Ford, he goes to that little cabin in the Russian wilderness.

Shawn: 45:19

Yeah.

Scott: 45:19

He's fallen logs and, you know, self Lundgren at his at his at his peak is this huge prime amazing physical.

Shawn: 45:28

Was hooked up to machines. They were monitoring it, know, so it's kind of like that.

Scott: 45:34

It's all of those things, but you know, coming back to it, role of the parent or the grandparent or the politician is hard because it's easy to be selfish. It's easy to make it it's easy to do things that make you feel good instead of things that people who aren't you actually need in order to grow. But the entry point, I think, remains humanity. It begins with looking at that kid or looking at that constituent and going, what does this person need? Separate and apart from how it makes me feel, what does this person need?

Scott: 46:29

And I see a lot of parents at games who are screaming at The reason they're screaming at the ref is because they don't want to be the parent of the kid who lost. They're actually looking out for themselves and they don't even realize it.

Shawn: 46:44

Yeah.

Scott: 46:45

They think they're looking out for their kid. But when you in sporting contests, I always loved going into a sporting contest against somebody who was undefeated, because I always knew that if they were undefeated, they'd never had a tough fight. I remember taking my son Nick to a taekwondo tournament. He was training for the national tournament, so he's 16 or 17. He was a junior black belt, a red black belt, and not a black belt.

Scott: 47:18

So, go up to this tournament in Stamford, Connecticut or something like that, which was a little farther away from where we had normally been. We were around a bunch of fighters that we didn't know and who didn't know us, and there really weren't any fighters in his division, 17 year olds that were junior black belts. And so I go over to the judges and I say, Listen, I want my kid to fight. Can he fight with the black belts? Because there weren't really even any red belts.

Scott: 47:54

They're like 12 year olds. And they're like, well, you know, our black belts are pretty good. Are you sure you want to do this? And I said, Nick, come over here. And, you know, he's this tall, strapping fit.

Scott: 48:11

He looks like a fighter and they look at him, they go, Oh, okay. Yeah, he can fight with the black belts. And so the crew of black belts that were there were guys that always fought each other at all the tournaments. And there was one guy that was really good and everybody else that was sort of average, and so everybody else would fight. And then the guy who won that would go and and get beaten by this kid who was like really good and you know it was the the scoring in taekwondo tournaments it's it's three minute rounds at that level, and generally the scores are like seven points to two.

Scott: 48:54

And, you know, scoring is by if you strike your opponent in a way that the opponent can't stop you. And this kid was seen as untouchable. And in the first round, Nick scored on him 17 times. Woah. And it was we had already waived the if you get seven points ahead, the match is over it was like just let these guys fight one of them's going to learn one of them get taught you know one of them's going to teach and everybody sort of began gathering around to see this Korean kid beat the white kid and after thirty seconds when Nick had scored on him five times, all of a sudden all the other fights stopped and everybody came over and watched this kid who was considered to be untouchable get beaten.

Scott: 49:46

And what was really interesting is at the end when they were breaking down the tournament, I went over to the kid's coach to shake his hand and he thanked me. And he thanked me for bringing a good fighter and then he turned to this kid and he said see you're actually not that good because you've never been anywhere and like here you go. So that's my own little personal story, which may or may not No,

Shawn: 50:18

it's wonderful. It's wonderful.

Scott: 50:20

It's, you know, and that kid now has the opportunity to rise. Yeah. And you don't What frustrates me, and I don't get frustrated much, but don't rob your kids. Don't treat your kids inhumanely. You're not saving them by saving them.

Shawn: 50:45

Right.

Scott: 50:45

I mean, leaving them in the dirt when they're down? No, don't do that. But, you know, ask them if they're hurt first, ask them what they want to do first. Let them grow.

Shawn: 50:59

Don't don't project and poison them with your own insecurities and fears, right? Let them have a chance to be brave and, to make good choices and to be competitors, you know? And

Scott: 51:12

it is hard.

Shawn: 51:14

100%.

Scott: 51:15

People will disagree with you. And, you know, why did you do this? And why did

Shawn: 51:20

you do that?

Scott: 51:20

But, you know, we're talking about interacting in the public dialogue. It is hard. It is. Doing the right thing is hard. But the point is that you can.

Scott: 51:36

You really can. You can find a different way. You can go a different way.

Shawn: 51:43

To me, that's the most valuable thing about all of what you've just been saying, is that when we talk about doing the hard work of interacting, it sounds very action oriented and kinetic, and often it is, because it requires the physical interaction between human beings. But sometimes there's that negative space area, right? Where, like, you know, there is action and inaction, you know, and, you know, and, you know, so I think that there's more power in the passive sometimes than what people understand. And it's like to continue on the sports metaphor and specifically soccer metaphor. It's like what Trump probably could have done was rather than going to be the striker, he should have been, like, the guy who was on the assist.

Shawn: 52:31

It's like, give the assist to the striker and then let the striker do its job.

Scott: 52:37

Yeah.

Shawn: 52:37

You know? But he always wants to be the striker. He's always trying to get, you know and and there's power in in in taking a different role oftentimes that, you know, I think A types and, you know, just, again, more aggressive types don't appreciate or frankly want to adopt those methodologies because it's not natural to them, first of all, and they don't feel like they have to, you know, especially the higher up you get in power and and, you know, ability to influence things. You know, but it does show you're the bigger person. And it does show that you have the best interests of, you know, the team you are alleging to support, you know, rather than the need to satisfy your own immediate, like, insecurity or frustration or you know, because a lot of this is just it goes back to you talking about the parents on the pitch of kids who get, you know, hyper involved.

Shawn: 53:33

Those people always have been just a mystery to me. It's like, first of all, this is a kid's game. Like, why are you getting worked out? Like, that's just an inappropriate response for the to begin with. But the second part of it is that it's I often find it to be simply a projection of that parent's you know, they're living vicariously through their child.

Shawn: 53:54

And they're just like so it might be partially what you were describing, which is that they don't want to have a loser kid, which would be very sad. But I think as much of it is also just, you know, they're living you know, it's like when you hear about beauty pageant moms. Right? They're just living vicariously through their kids, and they're projecting onto their kid what they couldn't do themselves. You know?

Shawn: 54:18

And and it's just it becomes a distorted sort of thing. And, you know, so and and plenty of parents don't do any of that, and they're all fine and good, and these kids are thriving and out there having a great time. But but to to your point, that it it does exist, and and that those are the people that we need to call on to kind of for self reflection and say, am I that guy? Am I that gal? Like, you know what I mean?

Shawn: 54:40

You know, because you might be, you know?

Scott: 54:43

Yeah, you might be and it, you know, I think, you know, when we talk about what to notice in the world, what to see that maybe you don't see because you either don't know to look for it or because you're choosing not to look for it, the choice isn't be selfish or be selfless. It's not the choice between it's all about me and so I'm down in the valley or I'm up in the moral high ground and it's never about me Because both of those things are inherently selfish. If I come to a situation and I say, Hey, I'm coming to this situation and it's all about you. I am placing the burden on you because I feel good that I am being the selfless one and I'm the giver and I'm the server. That's still all about me.

Scott: 55:36

So that's a false choice. Yeah. Choice is to be humane or to be inhumane. And the reason that's so important is you cannot figure out your course of action until you first acknowledge to yourself that the people you are doing the hard work of interacting with are human. They are not you, they are other people and they are human and that means the ref, that means your kid, that means all the other kids that are playing with your kid, the kids on the other team, the parents on the other side of the pitch, the parent, they're all humans.

Shawn: 56:26

Coaches, the whole thing, yeah.

Scott: 56:27

And a lot of people go, oh, it's too much to deal with. And yeah, it is a lot to deal with, but you can't even begin to deal with it if

Shawn: 56:39

you don't

Scott: 56:39

understand that the the value and the ethic is humanity. It's not right and wrong. It's not good and bad. It's not selfish and and selfless. It's it's humanity.

Scott: 56:54

So, when you are dealing with a person or you're dealing with a crowd, the noticing what you need to notice, which will lead you to understanding or trying to understand what you don't understand, which leads you into how do we resolve this dispute? You start asking yourself questions like why does this person want this thing? Yeah. That I think is horrible. Let me, not let us understand, let me understand why this person wants this thing.

Scott: 57:33

You can't do any of that if you don't recognize the humanity in another person. So noticing what's happening in the world, which is what our technology allows us to do, we can notice this incomprehensibly large ball of facts out in the world. Events, things that are happening. You can't begin if you don't begin with humanity. Yeah.

Scott: 58:04

And that will drive how you treat people. And it won't make you treat people nicely all the time, but it will make you treat them like a human. And I think that's what we're missing right now is we we don't see each other as human. Right. Know.

Scott: 58:23

And and it's because we just we don't we don't know. We're so overwhelmed with all the fake crises.

Shawn: 58:29

Right. Right. Yeah. And yeah. So many fake crises, so many inflated, you know, headline clips that, like, are designed to get you spun out and to dehumanize, like, you know, whatever entity is not your entity.

Shawn: 58:45

Right? Like,

Scott: 58:46

Dehumanize. The other

Shawn: 58:48

Yeah.

Scott: 58:48

I agree with you. To dehumanize. Yeah.

Shawn: 58:51

Yeah. Well, that's not the most uplifting note to end on, but it is a good note to to end on if you think about, you know, kind of the journey that we just took and continuing to break down the hard work of interacting for the betterment of humanity, I think, and, you know, kind of where the work still needs to be done. And it gives us a good segue into future episodes where we can start digging into some of that other, you know, less optimistic sort of realities that we're facing right now as a human civilization. So, thank you for that, and I don't know, I think that's probably a good natural point to conclude, Scott, unless you've got anything else. I mean, I could talk about the World Cup all day long, but

Scott: 59:40

Well, that is our hour. And ladies and gentlemen, that is the last word from my good friend and not average citizen, Sean Baker Garcia.

Shawn: 59:51

Hey!

Scott: 59:53

So we will see you all next time on the next episode of the 2 Parachutes Podcast. Everyone have a great day!