Scott: 00:03

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the 2 Parachutes Podcast where we talk about the hard work of interacting. I am Scott Olson. I am one of your cohosts. I'm a retired FBI agent, and I bring the grandfather perspective to our discussion here with my cohost.

Shawn: 00:22

Hi, Scott. Welcome everyone to another episode, and I am Sean Baker Garcia, and I am a happy accidental CEO and global security enthusiast. And we are here today to talk about the hard work of hard interactions. And Scott, I think this is an appropriate topic for today's discussion. It is largely driven from the real life experience that I am currently facing, which is how best to honor the one year anniversary of the assassination and tragic death of Charlie Kirk.

Shawn: 01:04

And regardless of where folks fall on the spectrum in terms of your thoughts on his faith and his life and the work he was called to do, it it it gives us a really, I think, clear opportunity to talk about, you know, the hard part, right, the word hard in the interaction, because nobody would say that his interactions were easy. Some people might say they weren't necessary, that they were fruitful. Others who don't share that viewpoint may say that they were harmful or even hateful. I would disagree with that respectfully, and I'd love to have conversations with folks who disagree with that disagreement, but or another platform, I suppose. And and so it got me to thinking that, you know, if let's just start with conviction.

Shawn: 01:58

Okay? So one assumes or presumes that in order to do something hard, you must be convicted in some way about something, a belief or a feeling. And so really conviction then represents the willingness of the person holding the conviction to bear a cost for what he or she sincerely believes to be true or right. And, that got me to thinking, you know, that if you look at it as a sort of, like, spectrum of cost, on one end, which is I think where Charlie definitely fell, was that extreme form of burden in terms of cost, which is the ultimate cost, which is your life, right? So in Christianity, we would call that our our literal Calvary moment, Calvary being the place that Jesus was the hill on which he died on the cross.

Shawn: 02:46

So, you know, I. E. Murdered for your beliefs, right, or who you represent or what you represent. On the other end of the spectrum is the most benign form of cost burden, which is, you know, somebody decides they don't like you or says something nasty about you because you post on social media about, like, you know, something that leads people to draw a negative conclusion about you or your ethics or value system or what have you. And so for me, as a very enthusiastic and, like, warm and fuzzy Christian, I just know, we've talked about this before.

Shawn: 03:24

I just I love the Lord. I love, you know, the life that we've been given. And, you know, when Charlie was murdered a year ago, it was like a gut punch to my lungs. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the wind went out.

Shawn: 03:37

I couldn't breathe. I didn't you know? And I didn't see Charlie the way a lot of people saw him. I was actually watching him through the lens of a Christian who was just looking for education and how to talk about my faith. I think one of the reasons people, like, get so fired up about Christianity is because we've always just been really bad as a community about talking about it.

Shawn: 03:55

We we don't we don't defend it well because we don't know it well. Right? And and so he was teacher. I I was first and foremost just listening to his sort of campus mini sermons to learn and and to try to figure out how do I defend my own beliefs because I know in my heart of hearts, I feel they're deeply right. I just, you know, sometimes lacked the vocabulary.

Shawn: 04:15

So so for me, you know, that started a year long, like, kind of mourning process, but also, like, reeducation of myself. It's like looking for other sources and trying to find inspiration in teaching, and I've I think I've done a great job of that. I feel like for myself, I've grown as a Christian and as a human. I am a very different person today than I was on that day. And if anybody doesn't believe that, just go listen to the episode we recorded that day because I was, like, I was Old Testament Sean back then.

Shawn: 04:43

Like, I was fire and brimstone and, you know, today, I am, like, New Testament Sean, where I feel like I've come into the fullness of my faith. And I'm sad about what happened, but I also understand there's a bigger plan in place. And for me, that boiled down to the question, all I wanna do is sort of, like, pay homage to the fact, like, you know, that that this time marker has occurred, that it was meaningful in some way for myself, and, you know, to be able to, you know, use my social diary as it were to kind of convey something heartfelt and sincere. But I've been avoiding it all day, Scott, because, you know, because of the opportunity or not opportunity. Because of the cost burden.

Shawn: 05:29

Right? Because there are people I'm very close with who I deeply love, who I wish had more faith in me, that I could post something like that, and they wouldn't jump to the worst possible conclusions about me based on what they think to be true. But, unfortunately, that's not the world we live in. And so what I wanted to kind of raise to the surface here, both in honor of Charlie's hard work and, like, his fearlessness. You know?

Shawn: 05:53

But because I think it's so relevant to our hard work of interacting theme is what really is Sean afraid of or anybody for that matter? What in this circumstance is preventing me from doing the hard work of interacting with my social online community, which is very, you know, curated? It's not like I'm just friends with thousands and thousands of unknowns. These are people who know and I think love me, and I know and love them. So why is it that I where's the heart in this?

Shawn: 06:26

And why can't I seem to you know, I'm not even I kind of we Scott and I spoke earlier before we recorded, and I just said it very clearly. It's just like, I'm not even brave enough to approach the spectrum, let alone jump on it and, like, live on it in any place. Right? Like, what kind of coward am I? Right?

Shawn: 06:45

So that's what I thought I did. Because I think there's something there, and it's not just for me. And if I'm struggling, maybe other people are struggling. And maybe not just on this. I'm sure there's other things that you'd like to post on.

Shawn: 06:55

So for all of my progressive friends out there, and I hope I still have some, maybe I don't anymore. I don't know. But, like, you know, I'm sure there's things that you want to post about, like, that are preventing you from doing so for the same reasons. You know what I mean? Because you're afraid of what people are going to broadly think of you.

Shawn: 07:11

And it's not that you care so deeply about what others think. It's just that you don't want to lose something, I think, is part of it. But that's what we're here to explore. I don't know the answer. So over to you, Scott.

Shawn: 07:21

Like, what do you think?

Scott: 07:22

Yeah. So there's, as usual, there's a lot there, and you have my brain spinning. And I want to make sure that we don't get down a sidetrack. There's so much here, and we'll see as we go forward into this hour how disciplined we are. But I think the core question that is emerging from our focus on the hard work of interacting, at least in this iteration or at this point in time, is the concept of heart.

Scott: 07:56

What makes a thing hard? What makes a thing easy? And I think that part of what makes a thing hard are the perceived consequences. And it's very easy to be in a conversation and say, Oh, well, that's on me. And I remember often when I was in middle management at the FBI, there would be some sort of disagreement and problem that was being worked through, and at some point a senior person would say, oh, well, you know, that's on me.

Scott: 08:40

And my visceral response to that was something that I never said but it was always something I wondered like what's on you? There's absolutely no consequence to you for taking responsibility for whatever this disagreement is. There's there's a consequence to the junior people in the room because if one of them said that, their career would be ruined. Their reputation would be ruined. But you're the senior dude and you're saying it's on me and I understand, okay, you're saying that to take the pressure off everybody but it's easy for you because, you know, you're the senior person and it's not going to affect your reputation.

Scott: 09:18

And so I think that's part of it, but that sort of pulls us into this sort of dual notion that think over the last couple of weeks you and I have been sort of stabbing around, but it's this notion of if we're in a community, do we all need to agree as we're building a community, whether it's a family or a neighborhood or a town or a political party, do we need to build that echo chamber? And it's this notion, I think the question to address is, if everybody agrees, does that mean we're right? If everybody agrees, does that mean we're wrong? Because if everybody agrees, then the conversation stops and you don't keep examining the thing. That's a road that we need to go down at some point.

Scott: 10:17

I think the other thing that may not be the primary thing for us to talk through today that came to me as I'm listening to you talk about what happens if you post and people that are in your community disagree with you and what's the consequence going to be, what's the lash back going to be if they say rude things to you or they don't want to be your friends anymore. We've been talking about this as well, and we're starting to see things in the public discourse that refer to this notion of our throwaway culture. We've gone from a, if you have something and it breaks, fix it, to if you have something and it breaks, throw it away and get another one. And we can deep dive into why we've done that. I think commercially people don't want to spend time fixing things now and commercially companies recognize that so they make things that are less durable.

Scott: 11:24

If you've ever tried to fix a car recently, generally once you diagnose what the problem is, the part you need is a component in a much bigger module, and that individual component, the little switch or the fuse isn't available, you have to buy the $2,000 module. That's really frustrating when you need a 40¢ switch and, you know, the only way to get it is a $2,000 module that sort of reinforces the spiral down on. And I think the reason it's worth at some point discussing that is because we're starting to throw each other away, you know, and we're seeing that in the last ten years. If we disagree, now you're not my friend. If we disagree, you're shunned, you are out.

Scott: 12:15

And yeah, as I say this, I recognize that the, for example, the culture of the Puritans two hundred years ago was, if you don't agree, we won't speak to you until you repent. If you don't agree, you're cast outside the village walls and you're no longer a part of us. If you don't agree with the church, you're excommunicated. And the Pope excommunicated some bishops, I think earlier this year. And so we're coming back to this notion that if we don't agree, we throw each other away.

Scott: 12:57

And I think the hard work of interacting is having a repair mindset. And how do you get that repair mindset? How do you do what's hard? And I think what it comes down to is wanting to. It's desire.

Scott: 13:17

And it's really understanding the hard work of interacting with the self. And the work of interacting with the self is understanding what you want, what you feel and what you want. And my my observation is that what you feel and what you want for you, if you are having a moment to meditate and decide what you feel and what you want, You just have to decide. You don't have to convince yourself. If you find that you're convincing yourself, that's a red flag because that's not you.

Scott: 13:55

That is, do I agree with the external forces or do I not? So if you want to have a friendship with somebody, that's the beginning of finding a way and doing the hard work, doing the reaching out. Well, my buddy never calls me, but he's always there when I call him. Okay, do you want that friendship? Do you want that friendship on those terms, or do you no longer desire that friendship?

Scott: 14:23

And that personal choice, the desire that drives what you do, is the root of things. And you can, as you do, have that desire driven by your belief in God and by your decision to be a part of the religion that you were raised with now as an adult. My decision is similar but different. And you know, as everybody knows, or I hope everybody knows at this point, I believe that God exists. My concept of God is different than a lot of people's, but I have faith.

Scott: 15:08

I no longer cleave to any particular religion, and so that is based on my desire to ask questions and understand what I think. And again, happy to have those discussions, happy to share with people why I feel and believe the way that I do. But I think your point is really a good one, particularly in the Christian tradition, but I think across all religious traditions it's not this is what our faith believes, and it's up to you if you want to be a part of this or not. It's, for a lot of people, I really don't understand what my faith entails. You know, go ask the priest or go ask the imam or go ask the Rabbi.

Scott: 16:02

Go ask the rabbi, thank

Shawn: 16:03

you.

Scott: 16:05

That is completely unfair. We need to have forgotten

Shawn: 16:07

the But

Scott: 16:10

go ask, and then all of a sudden there's proselytizing, and you begin to feel pressure to either accept or reject, which I think is unfair because I think that there is a fundamental difference between sharing what I think and sharing it in a way that creates an environment where the person listening must either agree or disagree. They can't just understand. But where are you on concept of the interaction with the self and the motivation being desire, not reaction? I see something and I react. That's not thoughtful.

Scott: 16:59

That is not what I would consider desire to but where are you on the concept of the hard work of interacting with the self, doing the work to understand desire from the context of what is it you want, and does that impact at all? This is not going to be a therapy session delivered by Scott Olsen, Deshaun Baker,

Shawn: 17:23

who's here today,

Scott: 17:25

I am curious to know how you're processing that in terms of, you know, the one year anniversary of Charlie Kirk being murdered. Yeah. And what your desire is to honor the passage of time, even though a year is an arbitrary thing, but our planet circles the sun, and so for us it's convenient to establish those triggers to cause us to remember on a yearly scale.

Shawn: 18:06

So what do you think? As I was kind of taking notes when you were talking, the first thing that I wrote and I bolded it was examine intent. Okay? So that's really what you're saying, is like when you're asking the question, what do I desire? Well, it's like, what's my goal?

Shawn: 18:24

Why do I feel like posting today? What am I trying to convey, and toward what purpose? Right? So I think the first thing, and and again, I don't want this to get lost on people, that we're talking about this in the context of one, breaking down why something is hard when we talk about the hard work of interacting. But then secondly, you know, what's the interaction?

Shawn: 18:46

Right? And then examining, you know, why is that particular interaction hard? So how do you define hard? And then how do you define what the actual hard part of whatever that interaction is is what I feel like we're talking about.

Scott: 19:00

Yeah. And so because that's a pause, I just wanna ask to kinda confirm for myself and for everyone who's listening. You want to post today, don't you?

Shawn: 19:10

Yeah, I do.

Scott: 19:12

That's the desire piece.

Shawn: 19:15

Yeah, yeah.

Scott: 19:15

And I think that some people understand what they want and how they feel so quickly that they don't understand how important a thing it is, and they also don't understand that not everybody gets there that quickly. But that's a really important anchor, I think, for you. Not just, you know, why is this so hard? But it's taking that beat of time to recognize and to take ownership of this is what you want to do.

Shawn: 19:45

Right.

Scott: 19:46

So that's I think it's coming from somebody who takes a long time to figure out how I feel and what I think and what I want to do. I think it's awesome that you are right there and you're getting right to problem solving. So awesome, sorry No, for the

Shawn: 20:06

it's totally good. Because this then takes us back to, you know, breaking down, you know, there's something so you've established that, like, you know, what prevents us from doing what we wanna do. Right? And there's always different answers for that. You know?

Shawn: 20:21

In some cases, it may be, you know, practical obstacles that are material hurdles. In other cases, it may be that it's at odds with your particular value set. You know? In other circumstances, it's a means issue. But right now, what I'm thinking about is like, okay, so, like, let's break down why this is so hard and then examine the intent first and then and then and then defy so first is examine intent.

Shawn: 20:46

And this is good for anybody, guys. This isn't just for Sean trying to post today about Charlie. This is anytime you're finding it hard to interact, like, I'm I'm I'm pulling out from this conversation a practical playbook. It's like, first, examine intent. Or in your case, establish desire.

Shawn: 21:05

Desire is maybe not the right word in my mind. It's establish the action. What is it that you're wanting to do? And then this is now the process. The rest of it becomes what's preventing you from doing that.

Shawn: 21:21

And then try to say, so establish the action, examine intent. Like, why do you want this? Like, what is your goal? What are you gonna get out of this? What are others gonna get out of this?

Shawn: 21:32

And then define the anticipated consequences. Like, what is it that you think is gonna happen that's gonna, like, you know, kinda take you

Scott: 21:40

What are you afraid of?

Shawn: 21:41

Yeah. What are you actually afraid of? And and so that's where I was getting hung up

Scott: 21:45

Yeah.

Shawn: 21:45

Was was the the you know, it's like, okay. So, like, is it are you afraid of rejection, rage, disappointment, goading, ridicule? Okay. Which none of those things are pleasant. Right?

Shawn: 21:57

So that would be a natural aversion as a human being to want to avoid that. Or is it more about the the actual, like, air quotes, cost of the time or the effort that will be required in the engaging? Because in some cases, like, I'm Teflon. I don't care. You can call me names.

Shawn: 22:19

You can scream at you. You can beat me with a whip. I don't care. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't change me or my beliefs or anything about that.

Shawn: 22:27

But I think part of, for me, what it is, it's two things. It's mostly about the fatigue I already feel in knowing I'm going to have to engage on this further the minute I do put something up. And I'm a very pragmatic person. I'm a very efficiency driven person. It's just not efficient.

Shawn: 22:50

I don't want to deal with that in my day. I've got 100 other things, you know, that I'm juggling and balancing and navigating. The last thing I want to do is go start a self induced fire. You know what I mean? So so so there's that.

Shawn: 23:03

So, actually, this short conversation has helped to surface for me. At least one of the things I'm afraid of is the time suck. You know what I mean? And the energy suck that's gonna result in me having to kind of, like, you know, quote unquote engage. I think it also is about so when you define anticipated consequences, that then helps you decide, okay, well, what is it the thing that I'm actually combating here?

Shawn: 23:29

Because now you're getting closer to what's making this hard. Right? Yeah. If I was somebody who was deeply, easily shamed, it would be the shame factor. Because, you know, people are gonna, like, come on your page and blow it up and, you know, call you a Nazi and call you, like, Hitler or whatever they're gonna say to you.

Shawn: 23:46

They're gonna just be mean. You know? Then, yeah, that that's gonna be probably a driving sort of, you know, decision influencer for you. So so and there may be other anticipated consequences that are kind of, like, underlying that are not obvious to me, but that are perhaps actually and I think one of them, one of the more understated consequences as we you were speaking that I was thinking about was, well, you know, there's also this thing I I hate being misunderstood. Like, because I well, fundamentally, I love people.

Shawn: 24:19

And, oh, don't get don't quote me saying that. Like, I don't I am a proudly, like, self described is it missinthrope where it's like, yeah. You know, You know,

Scott: 24:31

we got you on tape now.

Shawn: 24:33

You got me on tape I love people. I love people. You know? And and I want people to see me, my heart, and to see my joy and and, you know, and I and I yeah. So I just think I think that it it should always be great.

Shawn: 24:48

Like, everybody should always enjoy each other. There's no reason for all the fuss and the muss in my opinion. But, like but it is, and it's there, and it's real. So part of it is, I think, also on on some level is just just exasperation at being misunderstood and sort of, like, narrowly, like, defined. You know?

Shawn: 25:09

I don't like being put in boxes. I I really loathe that because, you know, in a way, it's like a passive stealing of one's agency. You know? And and so I'm always trying to, like, you know, again, remember, I think I mentioned this in a prior podcast, I was voted miscongenial in sixth, like, element all throughout elementary school. So, like like, I you know, I'm I'm I have a I have a certificate in everything to prove it.

Shawn: 25:34

I can bring it. I've got the receipts.

Scott: 25:37

Everybody likes me.

Shawn: 25:39

I you know, I just I I'm just saying that, like, again, this has apparently been a a disorder that has afflicted me my whole life. But, you know, so so for me, I just I think it's also just really frustration at, like, I'm gonna post something no matter how well intended it is, and automatically, there's gonna be at least 20% of my Facebook, like, you know, ecosystem is is gonna think hateful thoughts about me. They just are. You know what I mean? That frustrates me because that's not who I am.

Shawn: 26:11

So now with that said, so I've decided the action. I've examined my intent, and we didn't talk about my intent, but we don't need to talk about that today. You'll find out when I post what my intent is. And now we've talked about the harder part, which is the hard work of interacting and when it's preventing you, why it's hard, which is because of consequences. So now we've kind of defined some of the consequences that I think I'm really struggling with is just, you know, one, I don't like being misunderstood, and I don't like people thinking bad stuff about me.

Shawn: 26:41

But secondly, I'm exhausted. I don't want to deal with all the fuss. The last thing I'm gonna say about this, and I think this is actually kind of an important insight that I'll share and hopefully, you know, again, like, my goal is for people to take something out this that you can apply in your own life and maybe use to help you do the hard work of interacting a little bit more easily. It's a muscle. Remember, guys, this is a fitness, you know, test here.

Shawn: 27:03

Every sixty minute exercise is is, you know Scott and I are are you think of us as your personal trainers.

Scott: 27:10

There we go.

Shawn: 27:11

Yeah. So does this does my anticipation of the consequences, okay, in some way convey a lack of trust in my friend family circle that, like, you know, I can be me without risking, you know, abandonment or judgment. You know? And and and because here's the thing. I see people post batshit stuff every day on Facebook, and nary a one of those people, I guarantee you, give two hoots what judgment I might be, like, you know, putting them under or or, like you know?

Shawn: 27:49

And and sometimes I do judge, and sometimes I don't. And, you know, and I don't mean I never mean to, but like you always have, you know, sometimes you have a gut reaction like, but, you know, but I've never had anybody post well, that's not fair. I do actually, and this is a good one, Scott. At some point, we need to decide about the difference between holding a conviction and like that Christ principle of turn the other cheek and like, you know, prodigal son, let him go be a fool and let him come back and love him eat all the more. And and then being a doormat or or, like, you know, letting people just abuse you.

Shawn: 28:26

There is a very big important distinction between that, so I'll just say that. So, yes, I have people have posted things that I have kicked them off my Facebook for. You know what I mean? Or that I've unfriended somebody over. It's rare.

Shawn: 28:39

It's like maybe three instances in my entire twenty years of having a Facebook. But it has happened. It has happened. So, know, so in that sense, you know, again, and maybe, you know, and maybe that's the right answer. Maybe, like, if after checking all the boxes, and I'm like, this meets my sort of, like, sniff test for, like, what is in alignment with my values and my feelings.

Shawn: 29:08

And if it's it and I feel like I do a better job than most, you know, I'm not trying to brag and be fully, like, just, you know, arrogant about this. But, like, you know but because I do care about what others are experiencing and some like, I'm not trying to trigger someone's trauma about something. I'm not, like you know what I mean? I do try to frame things, but also because I'm just genuinely trying to be Christ like. I fail all the time, but I'm trying.

Shawn: 29:33

And and what that means is he doesn't shame. He didn't ridicule. He didn't he he didn't affirm everything. He wanted you to come. But, like, he also was, like, showing you the joyful side of what it meant to be a Christian, not just the Calvary moments.

Shawn: 29:47

Right? Like, it's like, no. There's eternal, you know, reward and benefit. And and just in this world, there's benefit. So, like, for me, I try to put myself out in the universe like that, where it's like, I'm I'm showing you things that hopefully you can read.

Shawn: 30:00

And even if you don't agree with my worldview, you can take something out of it. It'll be positive. So am I also just fundamentally not in am I being selfish with my trust of my inner circle?

Scott: 30:15

Yeah, that's a great question. And I have an answer. It is the way that I process this. And the reason I'm pausing a little bit is because I haven't yet sorted out in my own mind as I've been listening to you and thinking whether this is technique about the hard work of interacting, or if it is a sort of a core principle of the hard work of interacting, but it goes to this notion of how do you respond? How does it feel?

Scott: 30:54

And what do you do when those consequences that you're afraid of are concerned about coming back? When you share how you feel with the world, you know, when you get all of this, it sort of feels like an assault. It's not a physical assault, but it's, you know, it's language and it's the things that we recommend that everybody steer clear of. It's the anger and the ridicule and the vituperation and the accusations of, you know, sort of the how could you feel that way, you must be a terrible person, and then you know, going on down into the threats and the wishes for some draconian form of bad fortune coming to you. And the way that I process those things is I see the pain in the person saying those things.

Scott: 31:55

And I think I've mentioned this before, when I go about my day, I will, with some regularity, because I live in Seattle, I will come across, you know, groups of people at intersections on the corner waving signs and shouting at people protesting. And over the last year, I have begun to see if I see anybody who's happy doing that. And I have yet to see a happy person standing on a corner protesting about something. They are angry, which means that they're hurt. And so it's it's very sort of I I feel a little arrogant saying this and it's it's not arrogant.

Scott: 32:49

It's taken me my entire lifetime to get here and I didn't used to feel this way. I didn't used to see this and I I didn't used to value doing this, but when somebody attacks me personally, when somebody tells me that I'm a bad person or that I did something wrong or that if I think and feel the way that I think and feel I must be a horrible person and they're not going to be my friend anymore. What I look for and every time I look for it I see it is pain in that person. And what I say if I'm in a conversation is some form of, wow, you must feel horrible to feel that way. It must feel terrible to feel the way that you feel.

Scott: 33:38

And by saying some form of that, what I'm what I'm doing, at least what I'm attempting to do, is to love that person and I'm not loving them because they attacked me but I think what I'm trying to do is manifest the teaching of turning the other cheek. I don't think that turning the other cheek means if somebody punches you, let them punch you again. I don't think that's what it is. I think turning the other cheek is saying if somebody punches you, understand that they're in pain, they're hurt, they're in a bad angry place and that should break your heart. I mean, yeah, it hurts that you got punched, but it's not to turn away from them.

Scott: 34:36

It's not to offer up your other cheek in the hope that they will exercise their anger again, but it's causing you to do something real to recognize that they're in pain. Now, I'm obviously not Christ either, but what I see in what Christ did for the three years that he was here and executing his ministry, when he saw somebody who was in the Christian paradigm sinning, He's he didn't see somebody who was a rule breaker. He didn't see somebody who was bad and needed to be punished. He saw somebody who was hurt, who needed to be cared for, recognizing that if you're hurt and you do something that hurts other people, simply having an external person come in and say, oh you're you're hurt and that's why you're hurting other people. That doesn't necessarily stop that person's pain.

Scott: 35:53

It doesn't stop them from continuing to hurt themselves and it doesn't stop them from hurting other people but it changes the paradigm between the observer and the person who's in pain. And instead of the observer being the righteous, I gotta do something about this punisher, the observer is now coming from heartbreak and and love because when a person ridicules you, when they hurl an insult at you, when they try and physically assault you, they're not doing that because they're happy, they're not doing that because they're fulfilled, They're doing that because they're dealing with sometimes a very complex cocktail of emotions that are all bad feeling. And I think that is part of the hard the hard work of interacting is to understand that when you get something that hurts you back, that person is a lot more hurt than you are, and that person is actually in real pain. And your choice is to acknowledge that pain and to be willing to have a broken heart that another human being is in pain and then behave in accordance with that rather than you know what a lot of us do, which is somebody hits me, jab, jab, right cross.

Scott: 37:22

I'm coming back at him because I don't want to be hit again. So I think that that's that's part of it. And have two more things that I want to talk about, but I'm going to throw this back to you because that is actually a lot. And it's part of it is Christian, part of it you you can you can find this in the Islamic religious tradition, you can find it in the Jewish religious tradition, you can find it in Buddhism, you can find it in in any sort of system that talks about how people should interact with each other. Sometimes it's hidden, but it's there and I'm curious as to what you think of that in terms of what maybe we ought to be doing as we interact with people who are feeling that pain and are lashing out.

Shawn: 38:19

Well, think that, so what I'd first do is kind of go back a couple steps, just to sort of highlight that there's a kind of a twofold hard work of interacting lesson here. The first one is that, you know, if you're finding yourself in a position where it's difficult to interact, and actively avoiding interacting, you know, hopefully we've given you a kind of playbook for kind of diagnosing why that's the case. State the action, examine intent, define the anticipated consequences that you're trying to avoid, and then go from there. And now with that blueprint, when we get off of this call, I'm gonna be in a much better position to go and make my post. Because now I actually know what I'm dealing with, why this was hard.

Shawn: 39:04

Before, I just had this vague sense of difficulty that I'm just like, ugh, I can't bring myself to do it. It's hard. I don't you know. So I just like to say that's the first lesson. The second lesson, I think, is the one that you were getting at here in this last sort of bit that you were saying, which is part of this is also understanding how to encounter another's pain.

Shawn: 39:32

Because what you're really experiencing in a difficult interaction, oftentimes, you know, when it's at least on a personal in, you know, somewhat of a personal nature, is, you know, you're getting the reaction of a person who is very often and frequently in a state of trauma or pain. And so, you know, if I have a bunch of people blowing up my Facebook because they think I'm a sociopath for respecting and liking Charlie Kirk, those people have suffered something. You know what I mean? Now, it's possible that some of them are just sort of superficial on some level and two dimensional in the sense that they probably didn't even really know him, and they just you know, everybody else jumped on the Hey Charlie bandwagon, and they saw a few clips they didn't like that I'm sure were curated for effect. You know?

Shawn: 40:27

And then they just jumped on that bandwagon. That that's probably true. But then there's but I think that, again, we have to distinguish between how people react on Facebook or social media versus how they react in person. Now if I was sitting down with a good friend of mine who I've known for years who's, you know, unabashedly liberal, progressive, you know, in this country, We could have coffee, and I can I could put my hand on her arm and just say, can I please explain to you why Charlie meant so much to me? And can we have that conversation about why, you know, your feelings are the way you're they are and what is it that and then have a meaningful conversation.

Shawn: 41:08

She's less likely to scream some obscenity at me. Am I like, she and I she's just not not even less likely. She wouldn't do it. Right? Like, my mom wouldn't do it.

Shawn: 41:19

Like, these people wouldn't do that, but they felt very strongly. So what I think that the pain is in in when you have a genuine reaction that's really, really upsetting is also just dig deep. Chances are it's not because Charlie went on a campus and said a thing. You know what I mean? Like, they may disagree with what he said, but it should never be to the level of such disagreement that, like, again, like, the hatred is so it it's so aggressively hostile.

Shawn: 41:51

You know, because people have disagreed for years on on stuff that he he nothing he was saying did he newly introduce into the world of, like, society. Right? Like, none of it. It's all been around for millennia. You know?

Shawn: 42:06

So in that sense, So then you have to look at what is the pain? What is at the root of the pain? And you may not You may never know because we just don't cultivate deep relationships like that. You can't, Right? Like, can't know what every person you know, what's at the sort of cascade waterfall of their trauma?

Shawn: 42:24

Like, where did that what's the the what do you call that? The source water, the headwaters? Like, or what is that that the where where did it where does it come from? We know where it's landing. We see its spectacular cascade.

Shawn: 42:38

Like, we know where that waterfall is landing. But where from where did it originate? Like, what was the source? And and it's probably not just one source. It's probably multiple sources of trauma and pain.

Shawn: 42:46

So the question is, I think your teaching actually is quite Christlike in the sense that approach gently because there is pain and suffering there that is manifesting in complex human beings for which you may never know what it is that they went through. And then in certain other circumstances where you are close, maybe scratch closer, get closer to the source pain. I was able to do that recently. Well, I don't know, recently, last six months. I had a conversation at some point or a couple conversations with my mom, and she probably doesn't even know it actually.

Shawn: 43:25

And at some point, we'll have to have that conversation because I think she should know it. Yeah. But it's just that, like, you know, it took me a long time to understand to fully understand her source pain and, like, how that manifested throughout her life in different like, what I consider to be extremely unhealthy expressions of pain. Right? So so sometimes you can have the luxury to figure it out, and sometimes it's it's a burden that's a luxury it's it's it's a luxury wrapped up in a burden.

Shawn: 43:59

You know? But that's why it's hard, and that's why you gotta push through. Because sometimes there's such beauty on the other side of it, and maybe you can actually get something make some real progress with helping to maybe not erase an old hurt, but to understanding it, to allowing that person to kind of feel like they have some in some sense, exercised it, you know, not not as in fitness, but as in a demon getting it out of you. You know what I mean? Just like you know?

Shawn: 44:25

And so from where I was sitting, you know, I just, again, get to the heart of why the interaction's hard. You can do that. You can probably push through it. You could probably do it, and it's probably gonna, you know, end up being you'll be better off for it. And, you know, when you do get that inevitable reaction that you were hoping to avoid, just try to understand it in the context of somebody else's pain is driving that reaction.

Shawn: 44:54

And and you don't have to, like, look at it as, oh, like, oh, poor pitiful person. No. It's just that's a human. And how many times and then take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself how many times you've done that in your life. You know?

Shawn: 45:04

Because you you won't be able to type that list up. You won't have time, you know, because it's too long. Yeah. So I don't know if that's helpful or anywhere where you were going with it, but but it did help me. What you said helped me diagnose the fact that there's actually two lessons here.

Shawn: 45:20

One is pushing through how to get through a hard interaction. And two, part of that is going to be to just give grace to the other person that's giving you the hard time, right? Or who's making that hard, or who's responsible in some way is going to contribute to the hardness of that interaction? Because they're going through something.

Scott: 45:40

Yeah. And I think it's really important to understand the guardrails on the road that is the road of the hard work of interacting. This is not the hard work of therapy. It's not the hard work of family counseling. It is not the professional world of helping a person, helping another person to understand the deep things that they're struggling with.

Scott: 46:14

That's not what this is. And with due regard to liability and litigation and that sort of thing, neither one of us have had any training in psychological counseling. That is not what this is. The hard work of interacting is communication between people. And so it's not when somebody lashes out at you and you can tell they're in pain.

Scott: 46:44

It's not even at the level of understanding that they're in pain and wanting to understand why. It's not that. It is recognizing that they're in pain and in some ways that's a more shallow thing but it's also a really high impact thing. The difference between recognizing that somebody hurts and not recognizing is an ocean. The difference between recognizing somebody hurts and wanting to understand why is there's depth to that but the impact is different because you don't get anywhere unless you recognize that this thing that is coming at you, that hurts you, is being driven by pain and when you acknowledge, when you recognize that somebody is coming at you from a point of pain, that is a remarkable protectant.

Scott: 47:53

Me, it almost feels like magic, you know, and it's not magic and I don't know what it is, but this is the technique of interacting. And remember, interacting isn't a one way street. Interacting is two beings responding to each other, and so how we do that, if you recognize that somebody's in pain and they don't want to talk about it, or they don't want to talk about it with you, you've still recognized that they're in pain, you've still had that interaction. If it's a family member or a good friend or, you know somebody that you know very well and they want to talk about their latest counseling session, now you're at a deep deeper level of interacting and so when you're out in the world part of and I, you know, I use the term desire not from a, you know, physical sexual standpoint, but from a this is what I want standpoint. When you decide what you want, what you want to do and what you don't want to do, that doesn't dictate how you're going to interact in the world.

Scott: 49:01

You may want to be friends with somebody. You may want to go have a drink or go to lunch with a friend, but if they don't want to, then that interaction isn't gonna happen and that's part of it. And so I think it's important from the standpoint of what is interaction. It begins, interaction, hard or easy, begins with recognizing. And it's recognizing that the other person is a human and recognizing what that human status is.

Scott: 49:41

Are they in pain? Are they happy? Are they blind? Are they deaf? You know, and I don't, I mean metaphorically, not actually can't see, actually can't hear, but don't understand and don't listen.

Scott: 50:02

But I think as we're getting away from the hard, we're getting towards, you know, what is interaction really, and I think it comes to the part of this that a little while ago you said that you didn't want to get into, but I think we need to get into it now, which is intent. When you're writing a post, when you are reaching out to another human being, when you are putting yourself into a group, are you sharing how you feel because you want this group of people to know how you feel? Or are you sharing how you feel because you want the group to agree with how you feel? Or are you sharing how you feel for some other purpose? And I said there were two parts to this.

Scott: 51:03

May be two parts to this one thing because when you share, it's more fulfilling and less confusing, I think, if you understand why you're sharing. Are you sharing to convince? Are you sharing to be open? And interaction really is about being open and vulnerable, and and that's the other part of this because when you go into the public dialogue, I think there is so much in the public dialogue that is not open and vulnerable. It's insincere.

Scott: 51:42

You know, people are saying things that cleave to the formula that they've seen other people cleave to and so they're saying it to be formulaic. They're not saying it because they believe it. Every arrogant person in the world starts their post by saying, I was honored and humbled to be asked to and then they talk about this great thing that stoke their ego. They were neither honored nor humbled but they're saying that because that's the formula because they're too afraid of saying I was just so stoked to be asked to do this keynote speech or to be asked to be a part of this. And it really made me feel good.

Scott: 52:29

And I spent my life developing this expertise and I was invited to share it. And isn't that more honest and wonderful than saying I was honored and humbled when you were neither. And so I think that the armor piece is this notion of, the consequences you're afraid of are coming from someone who's hurt, and another human being is another human being, and if they're hurt, it's sad, breaks your heart. Or maybe it doesn't break your heart to you and who you are. But the interaction piece, the challenge of interaction is to be open and vulnerable, and to recognize that you are being vulnerable if you're sharing how you really feel and you're not being insincere.

Scott: 53:24

And then the way that you're gonna communicate that feeling depends on your intent. I wanna share because I want people to know, or do I want to share because I want everyone to agree with me? Do I want to share because I want the debate or I want the argument and I want to get in there and I want to throw punches and I want to ridicule and I want to tell people they're bad for ridicule? Do I want that fight? And I'm not saying that having that fight is illegitimate or legitimate.

Scott: 53:57

What I am saying is that if you have that fight, you're not going to feel good. You're going to feel pain. You're going to feel frustration and you're not going to feel fulfilled and so it comes back to what do you want? Do you want to be in pain? That's a legitimate desire.

Scott: 54:14

Do you want to feel fulfilled? There's a pathway. And I guess the underlying thing for me, and I'll throw things back to you with this, is that you actually do have control. You have control over all the things that will drive you to be in pain, unhappy, satisfied, fulfilled. It's all there And it's all there because of what we've talked about for the last fifty five minutes.

Scott: 54:48

Yeah. Spent almost another hour listening to Scott and Sean.

Shawn: 54:52

I know. Well, so because I know we're getting close to wrapping up, What I wanna definitely respond to is the intent piece because and I'm glad you didn't kinda let us gloss over that. Mostly I skipped it because I was like, well, you know, I have to sit here and analyze that, and I I don't wanna suck up people's podcast time. You know, by me sitting thinking about why I wanna do a thing. But I I think your your your point about it hit me in a way because this is you know, you could end up in a position where and and you and I are kinda using certain terms interchangeably, but I I think there's actually a a a clear flowchart here.

Shawn: 55:32

It's like when I was when you had said, you know, kind of figure out whatever your desire is or your want, I I saw that more as, like, state the action, which is like Sean wants to make a Facebook post.

Scott: 55:47

Mhmm.

Shawn: 55:48

Then it's examine your intent, which I think actually the examining of the intent is closer to what you're saying. So so I think I identified a precursor step, which is, you know, state you know? And and again, this could literally be an exercise. And no, we're not paid therapists or anything like that. And, god, I would never wanna be because that's a whole other podcast situation.

Shawn: 56:07

But, like, this is just like again, the hard work of interacting is our specialty. This is what Scott and I, you know, I think has spent all of our careers and probably our entire lives doing in one way or another. What makes us great partners is that we have done it, and we we are like the perfect yin and actual yang. Like, you know, you know, I won't go into all the different ways we're we're distinct and different, but, like, suffice to say, we're a pretty representative damn sample of America between me and

Scott: 56:36

you. Yeah.

Shawn: 56:37

You know what I mean? On every on every metric. So, you know, so hopefully this may matters to people. It's like, you know, put it on paper like a 10 year old homework assignment. Like, Sean wants to make a Facebook post.

Shawn: 56:49

That's the action that's in play here. Now examine your intent. As you were talking about that, Scott, figuring out what you want. What do you want to get out of this? Like, asking all those really excellent questions, which is another thing that I love you for because I love a good questioner.

Shawn: 57:08

Like, this is such a skill. It's such a skill, and it's an undervalued skill. It could be that you conclude, or in this case, I conclude that you don't even need to do that interaction. So maybe it's hard because you're not supposed to do it. Now I'm not saying I'm not gonna post, but what I what you got me thinking about was, okay, why why does this matter to me today?

Shawn: 57:35

And, like, how am I using my online platform, which is essentially a diary with friends, you know what I mean, to actually process things that I experience or I'm going through. And so why does it matter? Well, the first thing that leapt to the top of my mind was I just want to memorialize this because he mattered to me as a virtual mentor, as a source of inspiration for spiritual, like, you know, righteousness and, like, uprightness, like, the example I would like to follow in my life spiritually. And just in terms of who he was as a human being, like, you should hear when he talks about how he treated his wife and, like, you know, and and, like, all the, like, kind of their relationship dynamics and things like that. One of the coolest things I ever heard was JD Vance Podcast or sorry, vice president.

Shawn: 58:27

You know, he he he basically was like, when I got to know, also, you know, Christian Catholic, you know you know, guys, he said, when I met Charlie and as I saw him and how he interacted with his wife, Erica, and, like, know, got to know their family, he's like, I was ashamed, basically. Well, not ashamed. That might be too strong a word. I might be, like, hyperbolizing that a bit. But, like, basically, he was just like I was like, dang.

Shawn: 58:51

I need to treat my wife better. Like, you know what I mean? Because, like and and so I learned things from him. So like for me, it's it's purely self on one level. It's just purely selfish.

Shawn: 59:02

I just want to. So maybe so maybe the the answer is I go journal something I also hate. Like, you know what I mean? Like, know, I don't love journaling. I don't like I enjoy Facebook posting, but mostly because I usually have a purpose to it.

Shawn: 59:16

It's like, oh, my kid did a thing or, oh, this this thing happened or, you know, or just sharing beauty or the gospel or whatever. But but then, you know, so that's another, like, if you look at this as a choose your own adventure book, you may end up finding like, if this, then that. If this, then that. And like, if you find that the reason why you feel like getting something out is because simply you just want to write in your diary and honor a day, then do that. Then that's the answer.

Shawn: 59:41

Then maybe tonight I go before bed and I just write about today. That got me. I'm emotional. Okay, so I'll just like because now I'm getting to why I want to talk about him. You know what I mean?

Scott: 59:55

I love that. I just that's that's humanity. And it's it's so sweet. And I know that it's it's got to feel a little awkward, you know, being on the podcast. But what a what a very tangible show of strength that you've allowed yourself to come to this place where showing emotion.

Scott: 01:00:20

And I love how you use the diagram because those are just opaque to me. Your brain works that way and I love that and my brain doesn't, but it's such a great way to illustrate the depths. It starts with, I want to post but that's the very surface of what your desire is. And as you go through, you know, what you really want, what you really want to accomplish, what you really want to do, I mean you're describing all of the permutations. Do you just need to speak or do you need to speak and be heard?

Scott: 01:01:01

Do you need to speak and be heard and have a conversation? Or is there some other way that that yesno diagram builds itself out. That's a green flag, what you're experiencing right now.

Shawn: 01:01:18

It's important.

Scott: 01:01:20

Because this is fulfillment. This is self worth. This is the hard work. You're manifesting the hard work of interacting with yourself right now.

Shawn: 01:01:30

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So at any rate, I was just saying, so the intent does matter, sometimes if you examine your intention closely enough as I just did, you may end up concluding that, oh, no. You don't need to do the hard work of interacting in this way, but what did I end up doing?

Shawn: 01:01:48

I ended up interact I did the hard work of interacting in a different way, you know, whether it's through this podcast or whether it's through my own, like, personal journey here. I'm still probably gonna post something because I feel like there's a part of me that's also an advocate that wants people to know that his death impacted impacted a lot of people. And the fewer people that fess up to that, the easier it is for those who would seek to destroy his character and name to actually get get away with it. But more importantly, to make themselves believe that they were right.

Scott: 01:02:25

Mhmm.

Shawn: 01:02:26

And so, yeah, there is a little advocacy in me that that's like, no. I need people. I I'm willing to step up to the to the cost spectrum and jump on the first hash mark. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Shawn: 01:02:41

And if it costs me a few people on Facebook, then so be it. If they don't know me well enough to know my heart, then we don't need to be connected in the first place.

Scott: 01:02:50

And and this is the thing that matters. You doing the hard work has now made you strong. Yes. And that's what the hard work is about. You know, the hard work in the gym makes you physically strong.

Scott: 01:03:09

The hard work of interacting makes you strong and fulfilled as a person, as a unified person. Thank you so much, Sean, for demonstrating that today. That is just a wonderful and powerful thing that can't be seen any other way than being open and vulnerable.

Shawn: 01:03:31

I appreciate the opportunity for us to take this on. We wanted to talk about something in the context of Charlie is our small part in honoring his sort of time on this earth and and the gifts that I think he gave us as human beings. And, you know, and so I was very I'm very happy to do this, and I am a year out, which again, we'll talk more about milestones and markers in human existence on the next episode, so stay tuned for that as we've got nine eleven coming up tomorrow, the '20, what did you say, the twenty fifth anniversary? Yeah. Twenty fifth?

Shawn: 01:04:04

Is it really let's see. 2005.

Scott: 01:04:05

Yeah. God.

Shawn: 01:04:07

Shocking. Yeah. More to come on that. But thank you, Scott, like, for being my partner in all of this journey. And I'm so excited to keep bringing more of the hard work of interacting to everybody because it's just a it's a really neat concept that I think is super exciting for all of us.

Scott: 01:04:27

I agree. All right, everybody, that wraps us up. Go out and do the hard work of interacting. I don't see how you could possibly not have a great day if you do that.

Shawn: 01:04:37

Yep.

Scott: 01:04:39

Bye, everybody. Thanks, Scott.