Respect, Dignity, and other Emotions
Hello everybody and welcome back into another episode of the 2 Parachutes Podcast. I am one of your co hosts. I'm Scott Olson. I am a retired FBI agent and what I've realized over the last couple of weeks is that I bring the approach of the grandfather to a lot of the conversations we're having, so I'm not going to tell you anymore that I'm a private investigator or doing a bunch of other stuff. I'm just going to tell you that I'm a co host of the 2 Parachutes Podcast, a retired FBI agent, and I'm bringing you the grandfather perspective.
Scott:And I see my co host smiling. So over to you, Sean.
Shawn:Hey, Scott. Thanks so much. I appreciate that. As Scott mentioned, I'm the co host of 2 Parachutes Podcast. I'm Sean Baker Garcia, and I am a happy accidental CEO and a global security enthusiast, among other things.
Shawn:And I love, Scott, that you are embracing your natural sage inner grandfather. You certainly don't have the outward appearance of one. You still look like a strapping young man to me. But that's okay. I'll try to disassociate, you know, what you're saying and what I think I'm seeing.
Shawn:And, you know, it's just great to be back with you today. We had a little bit of a break in recording sessions here. So let's get into it. What's on your mind?
Scott:Well, I'm actually interested in what's on your mind. And before we get too farther afield, I appreciate your description of me, but I'm going to claim to be the modern grandfather, there are a lot of us that are in our 60s, and some of my friends who are in their 60s are old enough to be grandfathers, but they had children a little bit later in life and so they don't have grandchildren yet. I actually have two grandsons, so I'm an actual grandfather and at age 64, I think it's pretty legitimate.
Shawn:Yeah, you've earned it, you've earned it.
Scott:Actual grandfather, But I wanted us to talk a little bit about what we were talking during our planning session. If it suits you about, you know, how we form opinions and about how we present the process and the existence of our opinions to the world. But I wanted to throw it back over to you because you had a great story that I think maybe will get us started on this.
Shawn:Well, thanks Scott. And yeah, I think it's a great topic to explore, and kind of dive into the headwinds on. You know, one of the things, Scott, you and I, we always bring to the table in our planning sessions, is just kind of what our day to day interactions are yielding, whether that's with family or friends or colleagues. Or even stranger online interactions are also fair game for us. And what I had raised with you in in that session was something that my husband and I, we were having a conversation and, you know, just your normal husband wife stuff the other day, and kind of doing a retrospective on the relationship and on each other.
Shawn:And he said and I and he said, the thing that I I think I noticed about you that stands out right now, if I had to kind of assess and look back from when I first met you, And any any you know, he didn't mean this to be an insult or or a disparaging comment in any way. Again, this was just his perspective, is he said, you you appear less open minded than than you were when I first met you. And maybe that was because when he first met me, I was a single young female working in the security environment in Iraq in the middle of a terrorist takeover. You know, Emily, so yeah, maybe I appeared, you know, American, you know, kind of culturally secular, but personally religious from a Christianity standpoint. And, you know, here I am working in this gruff Muslim male dominated world in a male dominated sector.
Shawn:So I said, okay, that's all fair, you know, kind of fair game. But it made me really think hard about what he meant by that. And my immediate response to him, and then I had a follow-up response after I had a couple days think on it, was that what I think he is seeing is what I would call not so much that I'm not open minded anymore, or maybe less open minded than I was before, is more that I have a more defined set of life principles that are very grounded and rooted in my Christian identity, my American cultural identity, hard work and integrity, you know, of character sort of ideas. And where I think later so I told him that. I said, well, I think what you're just seeing is I'm more clear, and I have stronger boundaries and parameters for my principles, and I'm not as bendable.
Shawn:In other words, I'm not gonna sway with whoever I'm in the company of, you know, to kind of meet them and, you know, where they're at in terms of their principles or values if they clash. You know? Because I want the interaction. I want the discussion because, you know, if these principles didn't mean something to me, you know, or if I didn't feel they were beneficial to myself and my life and those around me, then obviously they wouldn't be as firm and structured as they are. So, yeah.
Shawn:So I just said, I think that's what you're seeing, but I appreciate where you went with the observation in terms of the open mindedness because it's a valid perspective. And my thought on why he interpreted it in that way was because the other thing I have to recognize about myself is I am I'm an angry person. Like, I have always been an angry I come from a long line of angry people, Scott. Like, I don't know if it's the Latino blood or the Irish blood or, like, whatever. But but it's very you know, I come from a very sort of, you know, just socially, like, sort of reactive environment, right?
Shawn:Like, everybody around me was really rambunctious and boisterous and passionate, you know, and had tempers, you know, easy to sort of irk but cool, like a volcano explodes, but then the magma cools really quickly. It's tempestuous, and it's unpleasant, and I know that. And I am working on that. But more importantly than that is, I think that especially for somebody like Greg, my husband, who is we're like almost polar opposites. He's no he is the most non reactive person I've ever met.
Shawn:Like, he's to the point where I'm like checking his pulse. I'm like, are you there? Are you is are you okay? And that's a good thing for me. It's been a very grounding.
Shawn:And I think I actually benefit him in many ways because it livens him up a bit. But I think that really what it comes down to more than anything is that I am not leading with love when I am trying to convey my discomfort, displeasure, or frankly disapproval of an ideology or of a situation, an incident, an interaction. And and my Christian faith calls me to love before all else. Right? And so I loved that piece of feedback.
Shawn:I didn't necessarily fully agree with the conclusion, but I couldn't argue with the lived experience of how he perceives me because it's valid for him. Right? And what it made me realize is it was sort of a wake up call to action for me to be more upfront about the loving part of who I am as a preface to any interaction I'm having, whether we're agreeing or disagreeing. Because when you convey to somebody that you care for them, and that you care about them as a human being, then it's a lot easier for them to hear your perspective, particularly if inclined to disagree with it. And so I just thought that was a beautiful little demonstration of me and my husband doing the hard work of interacting within our marriage context
Scott:Yeah.
Shawn:That taught me so much. And him, by the way, because he loved that I shared that with him and that that was where I was coming from because it also sharpened his now observational skills, you know, in his toolkit because now he understands where I'm coming from and and what I'm struggling with and and that I'm self aware about it. I mean, Iowa's already self aware that I needed to lead with love more. And I think, you know, especially if you go back to our early podcast episodes versus where I'm at right now, that will probably be very evident to people. But that conversation with Greg just put a fine point on it for me, and affirmed everything suspected, and I've been trying to work towards to begin with.
Shawn:So I thought it was a great moment in my week, even though I didn't it was tough medicine to hear, you know, in the moment.
Scott:Yeah, that's fascinating. And like so many of our start points, there's so much there. And we're definitely down in the wind currents. And there are a lot of wind currents here pushing around. I listened to this story and you're giving more detail now than you were giving in our planning session, was on purpose, I'm still struck by an old memory that takes me back to college in the early 80s.
Scott:I had a good friend who's still a good friend, who told me about a, he was in an economics class or something like that. He's a finance guy. He had a professor who used to say often an open mind is an empty mind. Again, it's a nice sounding phrase and we talk a little bit here on the podcast about the sloganeering problem and how if you have a slogan or a phrase, takes some deep dive to understand it. But I think this notion of an open mind as an empty mind is useful to this conversation, because it's very easy to go to shiny object paradigm, where you're in love with the last great idea that you saw and you're going to stay in love with that idea until you see another one so you might love it for a minute a day or a week not because it's a great idea but because it's popular and the next popular thing is going to come along and you're going to be in love with that.
Scott:I think that's part of it, and I think the reason that we find ourselves, and I say we, the world, the humanity, people who are engaging in the public discourse, are interacting with other people, not just in person, but through our magnificent electronic communication systems, it's very easy to get pushed into the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, and you end up going too fast and people complain about going too fast, I think we need to talk about, well, how do you slow down? And part of how you slow down, part of how you get anchored in that river, I think, is by being thoughtful. And this is a concept, not a slogan, it is a concept that we are talking about and should talk about more, which is be thoughtful, have opinions, and be opened to having your mind changed. We don't want to change our mind because it means we were wrong before, and I think the guidance on that is when you change your mind, it's not that you were wrong before, it's that you have new facts now. You learn something more that should change your opinion.
Scott:If you have the same facts and you change your opinion, what you're doing is having an open empty mind. And so Greg's observation is fascinating because of what it reveals and certainly along that, are you as a person being more deliberate? Which I think is important. And I feel it too, we've been having these conversations and sharing them with the world for almost a year now, nine months, and I've changed too. Having these conversations has helped refine my thinking, has exposed gaps in my thinking, and it's made me more thoughtful, And that's what we wish for everybody who's listening, is don't just listen, talk to people.
Scott:Embrace the effect of the discussion. And I think part of it too, to go down a bit of a rabbit hole, is when you are talking with somebody, particularly somebody that you know well, but you can be in the line of a coffee shop picking up your you know, macchiato and having a chat with somebody and I think particularly in our current paradigm, disagreement is an insult and so when you are talking with somebody, you don't want to insult them, and so no matter how absurd or outrageous a thing they say, in today's environment, I think we feel this huge pressure to agree, because if we disagree, it's an insult, and I think we need to pull back from that, and I think the way to pull back from that, a way, and this is the thoughtful part, is to consider what the word respect means and to juxtapose and consider what the word dignity means.
Shawn:Oh, can't believe you just said that.
Scott:Yeah, because it's, you know, we talk about how somebody was terrible because they disrespected me. Disrespect is an interesting word, maybe how it's kind of a made up word, at least in my opinion, is a conversation for another time, but the word respect actually means admiration based on skill. And so when we talk about, you know, we need to respect each other, we actually don't mean respect. You know, if somebody comes in and they are an extraordinarily capable scientist, they've won a Nobel Prize, that's what respect is for. Wow, you are extraordinarily capable.
Scott:It's sort of, I admire you because you're so good at what you do. It's almost a comparative thing. You are so good at this thing, I could never be that. I admire you. I respect you.
Scott:If we are equals debating something, if we say well we need to respect each other, that becomes confusing because the message, whether we understand it consciously or not, as the listener or as the speaker, is that what we want to do is admire a person for their idea, even if we don't admire the idea. We want to give them a higher seat at the table, if you will, because of their skill and acumen, and I don't think that that's what we do to interact with somebody that we disagree with. I think dignity, which acknowledges humanity, is what we're talking about. When John Adams or Patrick Henry or whoever talked about, I may disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death, you're right to say it. That is not I respect you.
Scott:That is I acknowledge your humanity. I acknowledge that you are not me, that we are different entities, and that we are both human. And so you can speak, but I may disagree. So, there's a lot there. I don't know what that shakes loose for you, but
Shawn:that's a news for me.
Scott:Where are you at?
Shawn:Well, it's funny that you right as you landed on the word dignity, like ten seconds prior to that, I had a thought cross my mind, which was really what I need to personally focus on in my life is maintaining dignity and disagreement. Okay. So oh, you're on mute, I think.
Scott:Oh, yeah. That's fascinating.
Shawn:Right? Yeah. It's because because, again, I think that where so many people go off the rails is that they lose the moral high ground the minute the conversation becomes not heated, because I believe you can engage in a spirited, passionate exchange of ideas and and feelings and perspectives. So you don't have to you know, not every hard discussion has to be conducted over proper English tea. You know what I mean?
Shawn:Like, you know, it can be more like a football match, right? Like, you know, where there's lots of hand waving and, you know, emotional sort of exuberance. But throughout it, regardless of what your character quality is, how you engage in conversation, you have to conduct yourself with dignity. Because if if you don't, then you're not really being an honorable, like, kind of partner in the discussion. Right?
Shawn:You're you're operating and and and it's so funny how quickly it it escalates. And and I know because it happens to me all the time. But what I think Greg was really observing was, like, my emotion, or my emotional state in the course of an interaction, particularly if I'm fired up about a topic, and I'm really, you know, driven by what I'm saying because I see a social ill or a harm or, you know, something to that extent. We have to remember as human beings that emotion, whether we want it to or not, wrong or rightly interpreted, implies intent. So when when you come in super hot and angry, like I'm want like I am want to do, you know, because because of who I am, I'm losing my audience and my credibility and my footing, you know?
Shawn:And so, you know, now, if I turn that anger emotion into a love emotion, I'm probably going to get further, you know, because people are going to feel comfortable, safe, trusted, if even the words out of my mouth are not what they want to hear. The one caveat I will say on the back end of that whole epiphany is that there is a fine line however, comma, with being likable and agreeable, as I think Jordan Peterson always uses the word agreeable. Mhmm. You can be agreeable, but this is where the principles comes into play, is don't be so agreeable that you sacrifice your principles and your morals. You know?
Shawn:And so and and and there's also such a thing as being I don't wanna say too nice or too agreeable, but let me just give you an example of what I'm talking about because that's gonna be easier than me trying to psychoanalyze what what I'm trying to say. So years ago when I was an undergraduate going to a very, very liberal university, University of Santa Cruz University of California, Santa Cruz, right, which is probably one of the most liberal universities in in all of America, I remember immediately falling in with, like, a group of students. And they were much younger than me, by the way, because I was a reentry older student. So I was in my late 20s. They were just 18, 19, 20, in some cases.
Shawn:Okay? And I remember voicing an opinion. We were, of course, in some kind of a political debate about, you know, in this case, was unions and and the relative utility or function of unions. And I had, you know, essentially come out kind of in mostly opposition to unions. And I'll never forget, bless her heart, the young lady who I was, you know, in that conversation with, in all of her confidence and infancy and newness, you know, so sweet, but basic basically was just like the equivalent of like, oh, you poor dumb dumb girl.
Shawn:Like, you know what I mean? Patting me on the head with full love, but telling me how deeply flawed I was and how deeply flawed my thinking and I was just like I was I was so thunderstruck because by the time the words got out of her mouth, it took me, like, a solid thirty seconds to realize I'd just been insulted. You know what I mean? Which hilariously took the wind fully out of my sails because if I had known I was being as sort of, like, condescended to as I had been in that moment, I would have been super angry. You know?
Shawn:And and I would have probably come out swinging. But because it took me so long to realize what I how I had even been insulted, I was just like, wait. Uh-oh. Oh. And, you know, but by then the moment had passed.
Shawn:And I was so I didn't react. But I was also like, you know, I don't care what this 18 year old thinks of me. You know what I mean? I was kinda like, you know, that's that's fine. But I but but I was a little bit offended by by the presumption that she knew more about me and was gonna educate me.
Shawn:You know what I mean? Like, you know, so so there's that danger as well. Like, you can't be so nice that you start condescending to people. You know what I mean? Because to me, that that's also really it's not a good look, and it and it's just not conducive to, you know you're you're basically conveying that you don't see yourselves as equal.
Shawn:Like, why is your opinion so much more informed and relevant than mine? I mean, at least ask the question. Be like, oh, well, why do you feel that way about unions? Like, what has been your experience? Like, what are you seeing?
Shawn:Here's why I feel like that's maybe not so true because of what I'm seeing. So I guess that's my contribution is maintain dignity and disagreement. Regulate emotion because it will imply intent before the words even come out of your mouth. And that can be good and bad in the case of this interaction I had in my early undergraduate years. The emotional intent seemed like it was kind and good, which was a bit disarming because then it actually prevented me from standing on principle for what I was believing and, at the time, fighting for.
Shawn:But just be aware that your emotional conveyance is going to either hinder or accelerate or, in some way, facilitate the discussion. And, you know, I guess from that example, I'd rather have gone have it had gone that way because now we're still in a conversation. Whereas if, you know, she had taken a different reaction and just been really angry about it, well, that would have that would have been a conversation killer automatically.
Scott:Yeah.
Shawn:You know, neither was good. I still kind of felt like the conversation got shut down because I felt too shamed or embarrassed now to kind of lobby a counterargument. You know what I mean? Now, was more focused about perception, about how I was being perceived than I was about the issue, and it disoriented me. But But yeah, just be aware that you're emotional.
Shawn:It's kind of like how you're always saying, Scott, nobody ever teaches the how of these things. You teach the why. But how is so important, and how we communicate, and how we human with each other is essential. And so that's my little kernel of wisdom for the day.
Scott:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love that. And I think it's so important, and there's a lot of detail here, but I don't think it's nuance. It's high impact because it matters, and you remind me of a couple of different things. Saw in the news when either during the New York mayoral campaign last year or just after new mayor, Mamdani, talked about how bad it was when the opposition criticized him and his supporters for protesting and yelling in the streets.
Scott:And he said that it was something along the lines of, you know, the political opponents are using this notion of dignity as a weapon against us. We shouldn't have to be dignified because that robs us of our voice. Those are my words, not his words, but that was the concept. And I think it's really important to understand that emotion is one of the anchors for how we communicate. And my opinion, and I'll throw this to you to get your commentary and your agreement or disagreement, but it's not to modulate emotion, it is to make emotion productive.
Scott:And so, if you are passionate about something, I think it's really important not to hold that back. But there is a fundamental difference between shouting at somebody and passionately describing why you think what you think and how you feel. I remember two separate little memory examples from me. The first is when I was just learning to be a trial attorney. My first job out of law school was as a deputy prosecutor.
Scott:So I was a trial attorney and part of that job is speaking to people to convince them, speaking to judges to convince them to rule your way, and speaking to juries to convince them to produce verdicts that you think are correct. And one of the rookie mistakes that new attorneys make is to remove emotion, because, you know, that needs to be decided on the facts and it needs to be decided on the law and not on emotion. But if you remove emotion people think you're dishonest because you're hiding from them how things matter to you. But there is a fundamental difference between sharing how you feel and using your feelings as a as a lever to get somebody to do what you want them to do. So this this young lady that that denigrated you, patted you on the head, and essentially using a very polite tone said, you're stupid and one day you'll smarten up and you'll see that I'm right.
Scott:She used a particular emotional technique to ridicule and I think that is not what emotion is for. Emotion is how we present to each other as being genuine. The other really fascinating thing came from my daughter Abigail who's, she's 30 and she has been in the food industry her entire life. She graduated from the Culinary Institute of America. She worked at a Michelin three star restaurant And she's actually appeared on a couple of podcasts as a, you know, young lady at the top of her industry.
Scott:And it's wonderful. I mean, she's a wonderful person. And we've talked a lot about, she and I about, you know, how to lead and how to do this stuff. And it was fascinating. She told me about a conversation she was in when she was asked, and it was on a podcast and the podcaster asked her, you know, you're, you're a woman in a man's world.
Scott:Women are emotional and men are not. How do you deal with that? And her response was to laugh and to say, you think men aren't emotional? Have you ever been in a Michelin three star kitchen? The men are emotional.
Scott:They just have different emotions than women. They get mad and they yell and they're manipulative and they have tons of emotion flowing through them. They're just not, you know, her plan for dealing with the stress of this job. And I love telling this story because it makes me laugh. I said, when she got the job, I said, you know, how are you going to deal with the stress of this job?
Scott:She goes, my plan is to go into the bathroom and cry. And it's interesting she said, it's interesting she said that the standard belief is that crying is an emotion and screaming is not. Women cry, women are emotional, and you know need to be coddled, which I think is a horrible approach and it's insulting to any person who responds to stress with the emotion of crying and then you know somehow anger is okay and if someone responds to stress with aggression and anger well, that just comes with the territory. And it's this, and we should probably do a bit of a deep dive into how the emotions that most women have are somehow bad. And the emotions that most men have are somehow good.
Scott:It's nonsense. Emotions are emotions. The point that I'm trying to make is it's not modulating emotions. It's using your emotions as a way to be vulnerable rather than a way to be self indulgent. If I feel a certain way and I use that emotion in a conversation or in an interaction to claim the moral high ground and say essentially if you don't agree with me then you're a bad person that is using emotion as self indulgence but you're not really sharing yourself.
Scott:If as you're talking about something and I'll use us as an example and we have struggled with this through this podcast, how do you get in an open forum to be known as Scott Olson and as Sean Baker Garcia talking about things that we think are important that other people may think is complete nonsense? You know, we get feedback where people say, well, you know, you need to have guests on, you need to do different stuff, but we know what we're passionate about and having, it's not that it's an appropriate level of emotion, but it is being vulnerable, it is sharing with the world as I'm, you know, talking about emotions, as I'm talking about how do you interact with somebody that you don't agree with without insulting them. I think this is one of the most fundamental things that we can do as people with each other and you know your concept of approaching it with love is a wonderful paradigm because if you love you don't ridicule. You're not self indulgent. You exercise self control so that you are sharing yourself instead of verbally assaulting somebody and that really is the difference.
Scott:We've talked about the intent of communication. How you come to the conversation and what you choose to share absolutely matters, but respect has nothing to do with it. Unless you actually do admire somebody's skill and you do have admiration for that person and you do respect them, respect is good. But if we are sitting around having a conversation, it is dignity, it is decorum, It is sitting there and paying attention when somebody is saying something that you think is ridiculous, that you think is not only false but demonstrably false and exercising that level of self control that makes it so that you don't need them to agree with you. But think, you know, if we pull ourselves back around to Greg's initial observation of you, which I think is wonderful, it sounds to me like you have less and less come into a conversation using as a start point, I don't disagree with you.
Scott:I think your idea is valid and you're going right to, well, that's interesting and here's what I think. And I think that's a sign of maturity. But I don't know.
Shawn:The best news for you? Do you think? Well, so for me, I'm, you know, I think that to me, dignity and emotion are two different things. I think that, you know, when I'm talking about, you know, maintaining dignity and disagreement, it's maintaining my personal integrity and my personal composure, not necessarily, like, in terms of how I'm emotionally presenting. Because, you know, for emotional expression, you you you probably need to read the room.
Shawn:Is it appropriate for you to be freaking out, you know, in public or in a live you know what I mean? Like, you know, versus I'm in my living room. I just saw a news story, and now I'm literally jumping up and down on the couch. I'm so mad. So there are context appropriate scenarios where you have to kind of dial it back just because it would frankly be inappropriate if you're somewhere else.
Shawn:So I agree completely that you know, to be dignified does not necessarily mean to be emotionally hyper regulated. It just means, you know, when I'm going to maintain dignity, it means I'm going to make a commitment to myself that when I'm engaged with somebody who disagrees with me on something I'm particularly passionate about, that I'm not going to go to the lowest common denominator in the discussion where I kind of start basically just throwing rocks at you. And so that, to me, is maintaining your dignity. It's it's, you know, doing the hard work of, you know, putting ideas up against other ideas and then well defending them or not, you know, as it were. And if you don't well defend your idea, then it maybe you need to go back and do more of your homework.
Shawn:It doesn't mean you're wrong necessarily. Or maybe you are wrong. And like you said, you're open minded to having your you're open to having your mind or perspective changed on something. It just means that you might need to go back and do some homework. And you know, but where I think I see in Greg's example, and I see this a lot online, or, you know, mostly online, actually, because that's where people seem to be the most emboldened.
Shawn:And we've talked about this before. People act like complete psychopaths online. And they, you know, ninety five percent of them would never take that, would never use the They wouldn't speak to people like that in real life. You know? But somehow they feel completely emboldened by the the, you know, virtual wall.
Shawn:And and so then they they reveal these sides to themselves that are that are just so ugly and and unproductive. But, you know, if if my emotions are steamrolling over somebody to the point where, you know, they're just like, I don't even know why you're yelling at me. I agree with you. You know what I mean? Like and and just trying to be kind of moderately aware of the other person's personality, I think, is just so important.
Shawn:Stop making it all about you. Like like, look at the because, like, again, somebody like Greg is so soft spoken, and he's so it takes him time to process his thoughts. But when he gets he's like an ent, you know, in Lord of the Rings. Like, you know, it takes a minute to process. He processes quite slowly and and very methodically, and then he offers a a thought.
Shawn:And it's usually a very valuable thought. You know? And so, you know, so for him, when I come in, you know, at a 100 miles an hour like a damn hurricane, and I'm just like, you you know and and he you know? And I look around and his, you know, his whole house has been blown up, and he's got sticks in his hair, and he's like, I don't I I don't even know what just happened. I I mean, I think I agree with you, but, like, now I feel like you hate me or something.
Shawn:You know? And so so that's sort of where I was coming at it. Like, you know, is that I I and others like me because there's a whole code contingency of people like me who are very The difference is I don't do that on the internet. I've never done that on the internet. I will never I'm actually better behaved on the internet than I am in person.
Shawn:I'm probably that weird rare scenario where I am insanely, you know, liberal with my emotional sort of, like, flamboyance, you know, when I'm in person. But then online, I'm like, you know, a librarian marm. I'm like, what children, now let's not fight. It's all very good, and like, just present your ideas. So that's for me kind of where I land with it.
Shawn:And, you know, but I also recognize that it's not easy for people like myself to do that all the time. And you have to look at where is it coming from in yourself. And I think I'm getting much better at this because I see my overall hyper reactivity and anger and frustration levels kind of, you know, every year I get more and more sort of tempered and moderate. And it's not because I don't still feel things deeply passionately and in some cases aggressively. But I am now in a position in my life where I am confident in my value system, I am strong in my faith, and I feel materially protected and safe in my world.
Shawn:And when you start checking those boxes, you become much more capable of being that strong peer in a stormy sea. Because you're like, okay. Well, you can rage at me all day long about this. I'm not going to agree with you, you know, but I'm also not going to meet you at that reactivity level Because I don't really need to. You know what I mean?
Shawn:Like, I'm you know? Yeah. Where I think I used to be scared of everything all the time, Scott. I used to be insecure about my own sort of worth, and my own value, and my own competence or aptitude. I used to be insecure about if I was going to make it this month, or the next month, or this year.
Shawn:And so I have a lot of empathy for people who are I get very annoyed with you. Just make no mistake. If you're one of those people online and you're raging constantly, I do ask you to please reconsider. Because 20 fourseven online raging is so toxic and destructive for humanity overall. But a big caveat is, I also see you.
Shawn:And I feel you, and I feel for you because I have been there, and I know where you're at. You know, something in your life, maybe across all three of those spectrums that I just described, is not allowing you to feel peace or confidence. But yeah, that's where the making love, leading with that love is so essential, because those are the people who need it the most.
Scott:Yeah, I mean, when you, you know, for me, the dignity lens, it's not about me, it's about the person who's not me. It's the other human being or the other human beings. When somebody is angry and screaming, certainly as I have transitioned from being a father to being a grandfather, my response to that is that it's heartbreaking, because I know what it feels like to be angry like that. I know what it feels like to be outraged by something and it feels terrible. You don't scream in the street if you feel good.
Scott:You scream in the street because you feel bad and it's not everybody's role to go out and help everybody, but it is to recognize and acknowledge that even the person screaming in the street is a human and they're doing it because of the way that they've been impacted in the circumstances. Now, a couple of flags on the play. You know, the first is, and this is directly to everybody who's out there listening and to the people that might listen to the people who are listening, is if you would not say what you say to another person face to face you shouldn't, not probably, and that's my pause, not probably you shouldn't say it online because if you wouldn't say it to somebody face to face you don't own it and so it's actually not what you believe. Yeah. You want to be a part of a mob you're hiding, You're hiding.
Scott:You're hiding amongst like minded people, which means you're actually literally going along with the crowd. It's probably not what you believe. If you wouldn't go you know, to the protest venue by yourself and say those things to individual people by yourself, you don't believe those things and that's instructive because it helps a person understand themselves. And the other thing is, and this is driven by my respect for you and my personal admiration for you and the deep level of our friendship. I don't think there's anything wrong with being passionate.
Scott:I don't think that there's anything that needs to be fixed or improved in your personality. Metaphorically, some people have hot blood and some people have cold blood. Some people love the storm and some people love the calm. It is a way of being that is not a problem that needs to be fixed. The challenge, I think, is when you have a passionate person who is excited about things and has a big personality and speaks and is demonstrative, it's easy to conflate that or confuse that to, you know, with somebody who's using emotion as something that's aggressive and rude and it's actually not And certainly if you're a big personality and you're excited about something, and you look around and everybody's like overwhelmed with the emotion that you're putting out, again, as a human understanding that, you know the way that you communicate, I mean the meal you're serving is maybe not what everybody likes and it's you know recognizing that it's not all about you is important.
Scott:But it also doesn't mean that you need to change to accommodate everybody else. What it means is you need to recognize that what you're doing is sharing. And when you share, when you're open and honest, you have integrity, which is, you know, to me, it means doesn't mean honesty. It means being integrated. It means showing the world who you actually are, which is a challenging, difficult thing to do, at least certainly has been for me over my life.
Scott:I'm better at it now, but it's taken decades of practice. But doing that actually makes you vulnerable and owning the fact that I grew up in this culture. I have had these life experiences. This is the way that I am and I'm not saying it's good for you to be hot blooded and I give you my approval because I'm cold blooded. I am right in the middle.
Scott:I'm right in the middle. When I'm passionate about something, the words come. And I'm a big man and I have big emotion, but I'm also Swedish, and so I'm going to sit here and live the longum lifestyle. Longum just means it's enough. I don't need too much.
Scott:I just need longum. Need enough. So in that way, I would sort of be more like Greg. But I think part of the question if we're saying dignity is being used as a weapon to suppress our message, my question to somebody who says that is why do you need to be rude to convey your message and is it wrong to be polite because if your message can only be heard if it's delivered in a rude way, if being polite and having decorum means that you won't be heard, oh, okay, now we got something we can set our teeth into. Now we got an issue that we can really think about, because if what you think and feel can only be delivered in an offensive way, maybe that requires a rethink.
Scott:I'll give you two examples that might make you smile. One is Charlie Kirk and the other is Ben Shapiro. If you Google up those guys in the event you don't know who either of them are and you watch when they interact with people, they are not quiet. They are not highly modulated. Particularly Ben Shapiro, he is very emotional.
Scott:He is very passionate, but he is never offensive. He is never aggressive and he's never impolite and he's never self indulgent. And neither is Charlie Kirk either. And that's the example. That's the example of having emotion, showing emotion, being passionate but having decorum, being polite.
Scott:It's actually not about you. It's when you're interacting with somebody that you disagree with, it's actually about them. It's about understanding them and opening yourself up to them and being vulnerable and saying no, this is what I really think. The easy road is to agree with you so that we won't argue. The hard road is, and I use this phrase a lot these days, I'm going to depart from you on that.
Scott:I say that to people all the time, whether it's somebody I know well or somebody I just met, they'll say this, that and the other thing, I think we should do this, that and the other thing. I'm going to depart from you on that.
Shawn:I don't
Scott:think that you can prove that. And it's amazing to me how people don't get angry unless they want. But I don't know if that shakes anything loose for you.
Shawn:Yeah, that's great. We're getting to the end, so need
Scott:to wrap up. So you may
Shawn:have Absolutely. Go on this one. So I, you know, I think that that makes total sense. And I would add to your list of people that you were saying is, I think, Jillian Michaels, and I think Constantine Kisson, who is the co host of the Triggernometry Podcast. If you guys don't watch that, I strongly recommend.
Shawn:It is a phenomenal podcast that is hosted by two guys from The UK. But I think Constantine and Jillian are also excellent examples of that. They they, they engage, and they do the hard work of interacting, and they carry themselves with tremendous dignity at all times. And they they never condescend or shame or you know? Because, you know and and I think Charlie and Ben certainly would qualify overwhelmingly in that category.
Shawn:I I know Ben can get snarky sometimes, though, and he's increasingly been in a mood. So he he he's he's starting to kind of veer off a little bit off course on his ability to do that, I think, as he feels more and more under assault by his peers, frankly, who are sort of right wing, you know, conservative peers in his peer group. But I think the point stands very, very well. And I appreciate, you know, all of your thoughts on sort of me and my character and how I am as a human. It is me in the end, and I can't really be anybody but me.
Shawn:I'm not really, you know, able I I'm I'm also I I can't even say I pride myself on my authenticity because it just is what it is. It it is ultimately authentic, and so I can't take credit for something that just exists. You know? And and I think I've always been like that. Now I can soften my edges, you know, so that I I you know, less elbows and and, you know, kind of jabs.
Shawn:But I do have what I would call at times a weaponized enthusiasm That is very overwhelming for introverts and people who are not ready for that. You know, the people who love the calm, placid lake versus the storm are, you know, like, okay, you know, they have to brace for it sometimes. So I either have to, you know, give them fair warning or check to make sure it's Okay to unleash my fury. But, you know, I think the only other thing I would go back to is, you know, when you were talking about I loved your point about the people who, if you're not willing to say it in person, then you should not say it online. And I am 100% in agreement on that camp.
Shawn:Some of the causality, maybe, I might just put a finer point on, which is that you may agree with it, but you may not be as convicted by it as you think you are. So you might agree with it in the moment, but you may not be fully as convicted as you think, which I think is actually important because it demonstrates that perhaps there is an underlying some other underlying thing there that is actually motivating your urge to sort of, like, just unleash on the internet. Right? Like, what's really you know, if I were your therapist, I'd be like, What's really going on here? Like, you know what I mean?
Shawn:Because I don't think it's over, you know, And maybe it is over dirty water and flint. I don't know. But, like, you know, I'd wanna say, like, what are what what are you really like, where, you know, where's that that sort of, like, deep hurt coming from, and and what's it about? And and so because those those folks typically, you know, and again, not that they don't have convicted beliefs on certain things, but they tend to bounce from thing to thing in sort of this online activist lifestyle, you know? And and to me, when when you're you fall into that camp, it's almost like there's a deeper hurt going on there, and and you're looking for reasons to be angry, you know?
Shawn:And and so, like, let's explore that. Let's explore
Scott:I mean, choosing to be in pain is a legitimate choice. Choosing to inflict pain on others, I think is not a legitimate choice.
Shawn:Not cool, man. Yeah,
Scott:not cool.
Shawn:Not cool.
Scott:But it's part of human interacting, and you know, the reason that this is important, the reason certainly that I find it important is because it's all about how we can recognize the humanity in others, and it matters because we're human. This is the environment we're in. We're in the world we are in, not in the world we wish we were in, and wishing doesn't make it better. Changed behavior makes it better. If you're in a situation and it's not working for you, it's almost a Costanza rule.
Scott:Just, you don't have to do the opposite, just do something different. Do something different and that'll get you, if you don't know what to do, do something different and that'll get you something different, and then you can refine from there, but what does refining require? It requires thinking, so.
Shawn:Yeah, amen. Form opinions,
Scott:be thoughtful, form opinions, and be open to being convinced.
Shawn:Yeah.
Scott:I think that's the message of the day.
Shawn:It's as good as send off as I can give. So Scott Olson Awesome. With the final
Scott:Thanks again for listening everybody. Thank you, Sean, for being a part of these conversations. We're stronger together than we are apart.
Shawn:Always. Thanks, Scott.
Scott:Alright, everybody. Have a great day.